Finally got a recommendation for a teacher who actually TEACHES a lot (rather than doing other non-performance music-related stuff or mostly performing)...it's a bit of a commute, but do-able, sounds good, reputed to have plenty of teen pupils and to have high standards but an open-minded approach...but....but.....then I found her fee schedule on line!

Gulp! Twice what I expected, and quite a bit more than twice what I pay now! I was expecting to pay more from next year anyway (lesson fees here tend to be scaled up according to the child's age), and I don't think her fees are terribly out of line, just that she turned out to be a high-flyer while I'm more of a bottom-feeder , in a bottom-feeder part of town!

Does anybody want to comment on these top-end teachers? Anybody gone to a high-flyer teacher and felt the expense was well worth it? Anybody turned the chance down and felt they made the right choice?

It depends fully on what standard you are and what you want to do with music. If you're a high standard and want music as a career then it's definately worth it. If you're a high standard and an adult learner, then maybe a middling sort of teacher (whatever that may be!!!) woul be a better option.

For the two years before I went to music college, i travelled from the midlands to London once a fortnight for a lesson where the fee was £45 an hour. It was fully worth it and I gained so much.

Depends really on what the 'top-end' teacher as you put it, is actually charging. I charge £18 per hour which is low, and this will be going up next year. However, this is reasonable to expect to pay in this area. However I know that some teachers charge up to £30 an hour which is a lot in comparisson to what I charge, but in the great scheme of things, is still not much considering what goes into teaching.

David

Fees are not necessarily a guide to expertise.

Two of the worst teachers I have ever met charge 50% more than I do.

The best teacher I have ever met (Heidi's singing teacher) charges 50% of my fee.

I know a teacher at the RNCM who charges little more that I do for private lessons.

Whether the fee represents value for money depends on what the teacher is able to give.

Not easy, is it? Not easy from a teachers' point of view either, working out what we are worth. It might be easier if we all pitched in for what we can get.

Steve

In my area there are only one or 2 teachers who charge well over the typical local rate-they are without exception music college professors. You're paying for the prestige, experience, etc- but that in itself doesn't necessarily make them right for you. As for doing other 'non performance related stuff/or performing'- freelance musicians often make up their living doing various different jobs-again I don't think this in itself makes them right or wrong for you as teachers. Most important question, is how happy are you/what are you achieving, with your present teacher?

I think any teacher who charges more than £70 an hour is pushing their luck unless they're a world-class performer giving occasional master classes or something. If they go much higher than that I think they're having a laugh really -all the way to the bank. Think about it - 5 of those a day - £350. 5 days a week -£1750 pw for just 25 hours.

That's having a laugh at the students' expense.

Violinia

I have a very good teacher from the RNCM...and is fairly expensive..luckily my university pay for most of it..but I have to contribute a bit because he is expensive. I don't mind that though..because he is an amazing teacher so it is and will be worth it.

Thanks for responses...at least I see that the rates are not unreasonable. I feared that they probably were not unreasonable, but unfortunately knowing that doesn't put money in my pocket to pay them!

The current lesson fees are on the cheap end, and I would expect to be paying GBP25.00 or 30.00 once he is out of elementary school. On the other hand, although his current teacher has tertiary teaching experience, she has very, very few students past elementary school age at present.

The prospective teacher in question charges nearly GBP49.00 per hour, for full-hour lessons. I'm pretty sure she teaches kids with professional aims. She is also a tertiary teacher.

I hear very good things, though yet to meet her, and Viohazard does definitely need a new teacher, so the question really is the price (Viohazard is not my only child). I don't know yet if Viohazard will choose some form of music as a career, though his aim at present is to go through an ordinary academic high school and enter a school of music at university level, because he wants to learn plenty of other subjects now, but when he studies music, he wants to do it at a high level so he can really investigate it. Apparently. Violin is his top musical priority at present. Or so he says. And he could change his mind on any of the above points in future, of course.

I do realize that money is no guarantee of high standards or a perfect fit! Viohazard's guitar teacher doesn't have a sparkling academic background in Japan (though he studied 4 years in Spain), and his fees are very reasonable, yet he's an excellent teacher. But since I haven't found the violin version of this teacher, I'm wondering whether to suffer financially, or accept a lower standard of technical instruction, since those are the choices before me at pressent!

As for the "non-teaching activities", I'm hoping indeed that Viohazard can work with one or two interesting people in that regard, but he does need to do some solid technical work at present - with somebody who is available for regular lessons, and also skilled/experienced in analyzing and imparting technical skills.

In my opinion, this is too much. I don't think anyone can justify charging that amount. It is unrealistic and unjustified.

David

I think certainly it depends what standard you are at when you start considering whether to pay that amount. I definitely wouldn't have paid that much for lessons when I was in school, when you can learn the same things from teachers who cost half as much! But I do think when you reach a certain stage in your instrument, it does become worth the extra money (I pay a lot for my lessons!)

The best teacher I ever had was about twice the going rate and worth every penny - if only I'd practiced!!

Liz

Some teachers charge whatever they can get away with - they know they can always get pupils who will trade on the fact they were 'taught by so-and-so'. I know of a teacher at one of the major colleges who charges an obscene amount for private lessons - there's no real justification for it. I also know of a very well-known rather wonderful violin teacher who will sometimes waive fees altogther if the child has potential and is from a low-income family.

Music is a very special thing and so is teaching it - people who teach music should always recognise special circumstances and price themselves accordingly as and when they can. The very best teachers always recognise this.

Violinia

Like for like. I am not from a wealthy or even what one would call a comfortable financial background. While at school my parents told me that they could no longer afford violin lessons, so my teacher pulled a few strings based on my comittment and ability, and I got my lessons free. I have him to thank for getting where I have.

When I get pupils who obviously don't come from well-off families, but who show comittment and a little more than average ability, I too will reduce my fees where possible to help them out.


We maybe thinking of the same person here! I'll PM you.

I wish I chould charge some of the fee mentioned in this thread. I'm probably one of the most reasonable teachers in my area - £-wise. I am trying to gradually increase my fees and particularly to those students to whom I have to travel. I can use fuel charges as an excuse.

I hear tales of a teacher (not in my immediate area but within the county) who charges £10 for half an hour and that is with 4 pupils in a group for piano!!!!

I have recently taken on one of said teacher's pupils who is willing to travel to me for an hour lesson rather than participate in one of these groups for half an hour - and this is for Grade 4 piano can you believe? How do they get away with it!?

to "all ears" - even £25 per hour would be pushing it round here! and £35 upwards would result in a "no-win - no pupil situation" Can you give me a clue as to which area the teacher charging £49 per hour is situated. I would like to compare -geographically speaking.

PM me?? Thanks

Actually I would be quite interested in knowing the geographical area that ££££ price too........

Oops, sorry! I accidentally deleted the "in Japan" bit while trying to shorten my original post.

FWIW: The absolute cheapest rates I see are around 8,000 yen per month (GBP38.50). In a dormitory satellite of Tokyo, I currently pay GBP67 per month, for my son's monthly 3-4 lessons (sometimes 3 plus an ensemble lesson). The high end in this area would be anything up to GBP87 monthly, and I would expect to pay that and more once my son is out of elementary school. I imagine the ceiling around here might be around GBP110 monthly. Violin is an expensive instrument with a snob cachet in Japan - piano lessons or group instrumental lessons might be available for GBP25 or GBP30 per month...so in other words, some people pay per lesson, what other people pay per month!

The prospective new teacher teaches in central Tokyo as well as in a more accessible location, and her fees would amount to close on GBP200 per month, plus who knows what else in the way of one-off charges.

Beyond that is the world of the master class/special lesson, which is a closed book to me. Rumor has it that people pay from GBP 150 to GBP500 for a SINGLE LESSON with people who are on important selection/audition panels or adjudicators for competitions etc. They think you'll never place in a competition if you haven't made youself known personally to the judges. But as I said, what do I know about that world!

As for putting rates up...son's teacher charges separately for concerts twice yearly, then instituted an annual "orchestra fee", and last month added a monthly "facilities fee" as well...but her actual lesson "fee" hasn't gone up

We are very fortunate to be in AmandaL's position. We pay for half an hour of his time though we often get an hour's worth in return. The fact is, we simply cannot afford his proper level of fees though it IS the market rate for his level of expertise. Perhaps he knows this fact which may account for the fact that at grade 4/5, we have not, since starting, had a rise yet! Thank God.

Fees in Japan don't look too expensive when compared with London ... Where I live in London, on the basis of no travelling by the teacher, £25 is the going rate for 1 hr for a typical teacher with an ABRSM diploma in teaching, £35 for one with higher qualifications like ARAM plus PGCE or equivalent, and I know for a fact, that it'll be £70 per hour for an RAM professor! I also know one unqualified violin teacher (just passed grade 7 and doing grade 8) who travels to her student's home but charges only £10 for a private one to one basis, half hour lesson.

EDITED - Finally, in school, it's only £30 per term!!! But then VN failed to get a violin place in school despite my asking for them, twice. There are age and "singing" prerequisites for a cheap place!

Tess

PS. My inbox is full. No time to sort so, all ears, pls e-mail me.

I think what needs to be taken into consideration is whether teachers are teaching to earn a living or simply teaching for the pure pleasure, the latter being where a little extra cash just comes in useful at the end of the week.

One also needs to consider value for money. Four pupils in a group lesson for piano and charging £10 each is quite frankly a rip-off. Well I think so anyway.

Regional prices may vary, but it would be wrong to say that everyone living and working in the London area or home counties is on a whopping great salary and can afford expensive music lesson fees. I have friends in the London region with responsible 'desk jobs' who are still only earning around £16,000 per annum, before tax. With even a one bedroom flat price often exceeding £100,000 and rents in excess of £900 pcm, there are a lot of London folk who are struggling to survive.

I've just discovered that I (based in the outer area of south west London) charge the same - very nominal - fee as another private violin teacher who lives in the Bath area. No regional variation in lesson price there and Bath wouldn't necessarily be seen as such an expensive place to live as London.

Twice a year I do a bit of research in the locality and phone around posing as someone looking for lessons myself. By finding out what others are charging I know how to not price myself out of the market, or make it look like I'm offering a cheap and cheerful 'pin-money earner' either.

ED. I certainly don't charge anywhere near £49 per hour, I'd have no pupils if I did!! I'm still charging a fair bit less than £30.

Hi AmandaL,
You could see my PM for the prof who charges the super high fees. Folks in Kensington/Pimlico/Wimbledon village will not think £70 per hour fees as being too high for them, surely! They belong to a diffferent plane - these super rich kids and masterclass-profs...

By the way, I wonder - how can £25 per hour be too much? After all, my friend's violin teacher who is now doing grade 8 charges £10 for half hour. However, I also know a very capable lady who qualified at RAM eons ago, is an examiner at ABRSM and also an overseas ABRSM examiner who charges another friend at grade 4, only £12 for a half hour lesson per week. Confusing.

Tess

It isn't too much, but it keeps my students coming back. If I was to hike the fees to £40 or £50 per hour I would lose nearly all of them. I don't live or teach in the Kensington/Wimbledon areas, so I cannot speak for the sort of parents or children those areas have. I can't imagine ever having enough income myself to even reside in such areas either! It is apart of London for the financial top-feeders, not a rank and file violinist.

If I was an international artist I could easily charge £70 per hour and still have a steady stream of students beating a path to my door, but then we are back to the old problem of "are they paying for a name rather than the teaching quality"???

Higher fees also ensure the international artist receives serious students, rather than the wannabes or those who are learning for fun. It's worth pointing out that the latter make up a vast proportion of a regular private teachers pupils too, so they aren't going to be wanting to pay £70 per hour, or anywhere near that.

You have made some very good points there, AmandaL with which I totally agree. At first, when we were told (in a meeting quite out of the blue called by VN's headteacher) that our girl was talented and shd head for Junior Guildhall where her ex-cello student went, we wanted to check her out with a lesson or two with some strongly recommended professor so as to avoid an audition upset for her? Our friends also thought it a good idea? BUT on learning that profs cost in the region of £60/£70 per lesson, we gave up. We thought we might be paying for the name rather than anything qualitative? His confirmation is on hindsight not necessary as we have used exam results in the end as a rough guide.

Besides, there are always music teachers who are committed and wise enough to see that not all talented students can afford their fees and will help (just like yours did) when they can!

I have a Dip (ABRSM) in clarinet teaching and a PGCE and I charge £9 for 30 mins - is that too cheap then or not? (I've been teaching for only 2 years though and live on the South Coast)

That is what I charge and it is about average for this area. However, on the South Coast I would expect to pay more than that especially with both the DipABRSM and PGCE.

David

My own teacher, who I see very rarely - just when I need some advice and help before a recital (yes, recitals are pretty infrequent too! - unfortunately! ) charges me about £40 - but this is a discount rate, as we go back a very long way! He charges more for students generally, but he usually only takes post-graduates as he's a busy concert pianist himself, so has a lot of demands on his time.

And I charge my pupils £20 per hour, but I'm paid slightly more by the school I teach at.

fwiw maybe just a little on the low side.

Permission to increase your charges!

Thank you!!!

England is such a varied place with wild differentials in wages, house prices, music lessons and everything else. If you live in the south you can expect to pay considerably more for everything but wages are more so it all balances out. Where I live, most music teachers charge between £10 and £15 for a half hour lesson, and over £30 an hour isn't uncommon amongst a certain grade of teacher.

By the way, I moved here a long time ago when it was relatively cheap!!!

Violinia

sorry to interrupt on the parents forum!

My teacher charges £34 per week....she was at moscow conservatiore and performing etc etc.

I also know a pro pianist guy whose teacher charged £100 for lessons...although she is supposed to be amazing.

Mind, living in london, i suppose us lot have to expect these prices

Hi cd

Me too, although I have just sent out my, "From Jan it will be £22.00 an hour" letter to parents.

Lucky that my part of the world does not cost a lot to live in

Steve

Scott, you're not interrupting - this is on the parents' forum since parents or adults tend to do the paying , doesn't mean nobody else can have an opinion!

Viohazard has just started with his new teacher, who charges GBP25 per hour, about what I would expect for kids aged 12-15 ...

However, the "hour" is elastic. When the teacher said "I think that's enough" at 2 hours and counting, Viohazard was astonished that they were finished "already", so he seems to be on his teacher's wavelength!

Just to reassure teachers, I think the lessons will get shorter as initial problems are overcome.

My poor, poor parents. They are paying for 1 hour a week for me, and half that for my sister. My lessons tend to over-run....by a fair amount, sometimes they are double as long as they should be, becuase I have 2x30minute lessons a week. My combined weekly lesson time is always nearer 2 hours than 1 though.

I know in many schools, you can get free lessons if the student is willing to play in all the ensembles/concerts the school want him/her to. That's the route I'm going for.

Just wanted to say that I pay approximately £4.50 per half hour for one child and £4 for the other. This is in school and they both get a half hour, quality lesson. I am really pleased with these charges and I think it is a pity and some teachers charge such elitist prices - because that is what they are doing. I am a teacher and I have a degree, a PGCE and an MA, but I don't earn £70 per hour (I am not a music teacher), I wish I did. It seems a shame that music can't be enjoyed by children whose parents are unable to afford ridiculous fees. The schools should try to increase the opportunity for learning music and enable all children to have a go at instrumental lessons, this would then put a cap on the prices that private teachers can charge, as most children would then learn at school

Certainly when I was at school, half the cost of the lessons was subsidised by the school. Probably 10 years ago we were paying £4 for 20 minutes but with the total cost being £8 (the other 4 picked up by the school).

David

You are lucky if you can get good quality lessons in school. Where we live there is a policy of group lessons in schools and group lessons only. Thus, if my daughter who is grade 8 standard learnt during school time, she would have lessons with a grade 5 and a grade 3 . How the teacher is supposed to teach 3 pupils of different standads in a 20 minute lesson , I dont know! If she wee to learn flute in school, she (grade 5 standad) would have lessons with a grade 5 clainet and a grade 1 trombone !!!!

It is ridiculous, in my opinion. I know that we are very lucky to have such excellent music lessons within the school environment and I also know that there is a waiting list for the lessons. However, I really believe that all children should be able to access the lessons if they wish - it seems so unfair that music can only be accessed according to the size of a parent's income. I am sure that I would think twice, if I was paying £30 or £40 per lesson.

private teachers do have to make a living as well though.

Also, if all lessons were about £10 or £15 perhour or something, then there would be a lot of oversubscription to good private private teachers. This could result in talented students being forced out because someone else can also afford to pay the fee.

And you'd be surprised how many people do forget this when you tell them how much the lessons are. They expect a first class service for next to nothing, but you can bet your life they spend money on their gym club subscription, or similar, without even thinking about it.

I charge £25 per hour, which makes me accessible to as many pupils as possible.


I can see what you mean, but sometimes cheap lessons can also give the wrong impression. The old saying, "you pays your money and you takes your choice" can ring true at times. There are a number of 'teachers' out there who charge £10 or £15 per hour, but they neither have the teaching skills, the background, or in some cases the right attitude to teach. Some of them teach as just a way of earning a few extra quid a week and perhaps don't take the teaching or their pupils particularly seriously - it's simply a means to an end. Teaching should never be this.

If the Teacher is really really talented and is really a great teacher who can help you, I will pay anything to be his/her student. Because bad teachers wastes you time, and money can't but time!!

This isnt the fault of private teachers who like all proffesional have to make a living. Lack of music education is down to the school system in this country. I dont know of any schools where you are not charged for music instrument tuition. There needs to be a rethink in government about the value of music, until that happens it is not going to be generally available to the average child without parents stumping up.

Again its sad but true if you come from a well of back ground you are still more likly to be able to afford a better standard of education and that not just in the area of music.

Steps of soap box and wipes tear from eye as he realises it still the same old problems...

Hmm, you know, you can price yourself TOO low and that's not good for your image at all.

People who shop for things, whether it be food, goods or services, tend to be happier going for a 'middle' sort of price. If something seems cheap, then they're a little suspicious.

If someone with Dip (ABRSM) offered to teach me or my kids for 9 pounds, I might just wonder if there was a reason for the low price.

So increase it quickly! Not a lot, but perhaps just above 10 to get over the psychological barrier of a single figure.

Obviously a PGCE doesn't mean you're automatically going to be a fantastic music teacher. It simply gives you QTS so you can work in schools, but it IS a good qualification to have. (And very hard work!) Make sure you advertise the fact.

Oh, and don't forget our commission when you do increase the price!

Steve

i pay 25 quid an hour for violin.. well worth it.

The most expensive teacher in our area i've found is £18 an hour - needless to say I dont live in the South!!!

I think it depends a lot on where you live. I've been teaching for 4 years and I to charge £9 for 30 mins. That is indeed on the high side for this area. I do intend putting prices up in September 2006. It's difficult to strike the balance between charging too low which gives the wrong impression, and charging too high which puts people off before you've even got them through the door.

David

I think you're absolutely right.

Sorry if I appeared a bit flippant about it.

It's not as simple as I thought.


Obviously, it depends on where you live.

I hope you make them work hard though!

Steve

I wasn't suggesting that music teachers aren't entitled to earn a living, of course, they are. What I am saying is that it is a pity that to learn an instrument in Britain today quite often (although not always) one has to be fairly well off. The instruments that my children have cost me approximately £2,000. That in itself will prevent many people from allowing their children to learn an instrument. If I then had to pay around £40 per week, I can tell you, I would think twice. Particularly, when they grumble about practising!! As it is, I don't mind buying the instrument, as the lessons are cheap.

My beef is with the education system, not private teachers. If there is a demand for private lessons, there will always be a supply of teachers. However, I feel that children from backgrounds that are not so affluent, should also have the opportunity to learn music - at the moment I don't think that this is always the case.

I rest my case!!

I do not think you find much argument against this here.

Doesn't help you pay the bills, of course, but at least you can enjoy the support.

Bizarre but true. I know of one music support service locally that charges 50% more for lessons in school than I do for private lessons - and I am not cheap.

Crazy.

Steve

Sadly I know of others too. But they do provide entry in youth orchestras etc free of charge so you do get more than just the lessons for your money. Of course you also get exam entry included but its swings and rounderbouts at the end of the day.

Yes, and it's not made easier by the ABRSM refusing to publish all exam pieces in one book, like Trinity.

Why do they do this for piano, but not the other instruments? Having decided to enter our son for his very first exam, I'm horrified at how many books are required in order to see the selection for the exams. This is scandalous!

Yet, they're quite happy to sell an expensive CD with the pieces on.

I hope that 2006 will be the year when ABRSM shows they truly care!

Steve

I have posted elsewhere about my daughter who doesn't like theory. She is 13 and it is very difficult to get a 13 year old who has lots of homework to start working towards her theory exams. (She is grade 5 on the saxophone). I am sure that other teachers/parents will write back saying how important theory is to children who are learning music, but I don't understand why ABRSM put a bar on those who want to carry on to higher grades, but are not going to be music teachers/professional performers. If you have a look at the figures for people studying beyond grade 5 practical music exams, there is a considerable drop in numbers - seems silly to me - killing the goose that laid the golden egg (as they say). She wants to get to grade 8, but finds it hard to motivate herself to learn the theory. I don't like the idea of 'forcing' children to do things that they don't want to do. I know of other people too, who have said that they let their children go up to grade 5 and then they either give up playing, or stop doing exams. Is this crazy or am I a misguided parent who should be encouraging her to do theory? (We have HUGE problems with scales too, but that is another story).

I agree about the books - I have a pile of music books and my daughter has sometimes only played one piece out of them for her exams.

At the end of the day, I feel that music should be fun and not a chore.

Dark and Light people, 'friendand enemey' or whoever you are - please go away and stop cluttering up this forum with your adverts which have nothing to do with music.

Violinia