On Saturday I had the privilege of visiting Cyrilla in her little underground cave at Guildhall. I'm not really sure what I expected when I got to the bottom of a spiral staircase but I was in for an education as I observed Kodaly and Dalcrose lessons!

Cyrilla is a fabulous teacher and the children respond wonderfully to her. They played musical games, sung in canon, sight read in sol fa, used hand signs ... Their enthusiasm, experience and knowledge was amazing. I was particularly impressed by their co-ordination and I would never have believed a year 4 child could have identified an ostinato accompaniment, never mind clap one while singing something quite different. Most of my under 15's wouldn't recognise an ostinato if it bit them on the foot!!

Still mesmerised by the classes I had seen that morning I returned to the hotel and when the lift arrived I instantly heard soh-mi instead of G -E (or ding -dong) when the doors opened!! A morning spent with Cyrilla and her infectious enthusiasm for Kodaly had certainly made an immediate impact on me.

Thanks Cyrilla, for letting me visit you in your little underground cave and giving me the opportunity to experience Kodaly in practice.

It was really good to meet Cyrilla, Moo, Sue, Anita on Saturday. Hopefully they'll let me visit Guildhall again soon. If you're reading this Moo, keep knitting the yogurt!! Hi to Barney and Foxy too!

Awwwww....thanx for your kind words, noodle - it was lovely to meet you at last (even if it was in that horrible underground cave!).

Actually I thought the sprogs weren't quite at their best last week - two Saturdays off doesn't help and my Year 6 class CAN feel like trying to push water uphill sometimes!

Anyway, I'm so glad you enjoyed watching both Kodaly and Dalcroze classes. The two approaches are so complementary and the children are so lucky to have such comprehensive music training away from their instrument as well as their instrumental lesson and an instrumental ensemble.

Moo is still knitting her yoghurt and Foxy and Barney SING hallo (now try to sing in your Foxy voice, children - Joyce Grenfell eat your heart out! ).

It was lovely to put a face to the name at last and OF COURSE you're invited back (as is any forums reader who would like to come and see what we troglodytes get up to of a Saturday morning!).

Sounds like you had great fun, I'll really have to experiwence some Kodaly someday.

Sounds wonderful. I've really had no experience of either Dalcroze or Kodaly methods - can anyone recommend a basic book on both which would provide me with some knowledge of how they work etc.?

David

The book I have is 'The Kodaly Way to Music' - Cecilia Vajda. It makes more sense now, having seen Cyrilla in action at the weekend. No doubt she'll have more suggestions when she logs on later. There's another book 'The Kodaly Method' by Lois Choksy although I haven't seen it.

Do you have book 1 or 2? I have book 2 but it's aimed at more the middle/secondary school age. I've got the Choksy but it's not cheap!

I've got book 1. It starts at the very beginning. I haven't seen the Choksy book. Is it good?

It seems good but has more of an overview for what needs to be covered in each school year, and how to go about it. The Vajda book 2 has lesson plans in great detail - is book one the same?
I remember Cyrilla recommending the Vajda book 2 and the Choksy book 1 but that's more for the kind of plans I have for my own teaching - how to apply in instrumental lessons. I'm also planning to do classes for 5-7 year olds with singing and rhythm games, so the Choksy gives me an idea of what should be covered generally - does the Vajda book 1 help with that area?

I think it does and some of the ideas were similar to ones Cyrilla used on Saturday. Hopefully Cyrilla will be on later, I'm sure she knows these books backwards. I think she has a class tonight.

*goes to look for Cyrilla*

The Vajda books sound interesting, where are they available/how expensive are they?

Sarah, I got Book 1 on the internet. I can't remember where, (I got some help from Google) and as far as I can remember it cost between £20 - £25.





Cyrilla, who is Joyce Grenfell??

Ouch. I'll start saving then



"George: don't do that!"

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=%22...enfell%22&meta=

and especially: http://www.britishcomedy.org.uk/comedy/grenfell.htm

and: http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/guide/articles...l_7772940.shtml

Fabulous and very funny!

Sounds like you had a fab time, noodle. And if one kodaly class with Cyrilla enables you to hear Sol-mi (G/E) instead of just plain 'ding-dong', well I'll say her classes are fab too!

Cyrilla is a wonderful teacher and her classes are fab! I am privalged enough to have been taught Kodaly by her for 10 years and although various music teachers have taught me how to play notes and stuff, I doubt I would of ever understood true music if it wasn't for Cyrilla. I really hope other children can get the benefit of her teaching as she has always been a huge inspiration to me.

Thanks for that Sarah!



Absolutely! Cyrilla is a fantastic teacher. I just wish I could spend a bit more time with her.




I'll second that. Lucky you! The children I watched on Saturday were thoroughly enjoying their classes and very responsive to Cyrilla's inspirational teaching.

You're welcome

Anyone got Lucinda Geoghan's book? How does it compare with the other books?

Cyrilla, which book(s) should I start with?

I have Lucinda's books - the one for early years & the one for the middle years.
Only used the 1st book as my groups are 6-7y.o. Excellent practical book - very clearly presented & structured. Masses of material.
Also have Growing with music Key stage 1 & 2- Michael Stocks & Andrew Maddocks. Not really had much of a chance to look at these in any detail but Cyrilla recommended them & I think if I was running a long term project I would definitely be using them

Sorry I've been a while replying to these questions - had a tough week last week and next week isn't going to be any better...

dcmbarton - there is a book which covers Kodaly, Dalcroze, Orff and an American approach (forgotten the name of it!). I don't have it but it's one I've been meaning to get for ages. It's called 'Teaching Music in the 20th Century' and it's by Lois Choksy, Robert M. Abramson, Aron E. Gillespie and David Woods. It's published by Prentice Hall and the ISBN number is 0-13-892662-X.

The Vajda (pronounce Voi-da) books are a bit dated, especially in terms of repertoire, but Cecilia (who was my first Kodaly teacher) was a pupil of Kodaly herself and certainly knows her stuff. There are some very good suggestions in both books (Book 2 is a continuation so probably most appropriate to secondary or more experienced younger children).

It is almost impossible to learn about these approaches purely from a book. Could you learn how to play a violin by reading a book about it???! Music is such a practical subject and really has to be experienced!

As noodle discovered, having seen the work in practice it is now easier to understand what is being talked about in the books.

The Lucinda Geoghegan books are wonderful. The 'Singing Games and Rhymes for the Early Years' is a great resource - masses of repertoire and it is also very clearly indicated what the skills and concepts are that are being taught unconsciously.

(Her 'Singing Games and Rhymes for the Middle Years' has just come out and is fab too ).

However, if you want to know how to go on from the musical experience to the 'making conscious' stage then you need 'The Kodaly Method' by Lois Choksy/the Vajda books/Michael Stocks' and Andrew Maddox' Growing with Music, Teachers' Books 1 and 2A.

None of these is ideal and all have their shortcomings, but they are the best that are around at the moment.

We are currently working on developing a musicianship set of exams (we've done as far as Level 4 - phew!) and when we've done the exam criteria we will start to work on the curriculum - eventually we will produce books and other teaching materials. We hope to get accreditation for these exams, probably from Trinity Guildhall.

Unfortunately, due to lack of time to get all this done, I think it's a case of Watch This Space as to when said books will be produced....

Hope this is helpful. Please ask if I can help any more.

And - for anyone wanting to dip a toe in the Kodaly water and start to see what it is all about, don't forget the Cambridge course on Sunday 27th November!

There's also a great course next weekend in Godstone, Surrey, for KS1/2 teachers.

Thanks for all that information Cyrilla. Where's the best place to get those books, or does it not matter?
Hopefully the books will make more sense now that I've seen a little of what Kodaly is about.

The Cambridge course is on a Sunday??? Why didn't anyone tell me! I assumed it was a Saturday. Wonder how long it takes to get from London to Cambridge...

WOOOO!!! If you PM Moo she will tell you as she does the journey every Saturday! Also I'm going so I could always pick you up en route. It would be fab if you could come - I think you'd really enjoy it! *crosses fingers*

The Lucinda books are available through the BKA website - sadly it's not the most attractive website in the world, nor the easiest to find one's way around, but if anyone is interested PM me and I'll let you have the phone number of the person to speak to - and he'll post them to you.

The Choksy you would have to get through a bookshop - I think I've seen second-hand ones on Amazon as it IS horribly expensive.

Er - afraid I'm not sure about the Growing With Music ones as they are officially out of print, but I think the Voices Foundation might still have some copies???

The Lucinda books are also available from the nycos website (National Youth Choir Of Scotland) which is easier to find your way around! Click here (I know 'cos I ordered my stuff from them, although having said that I ordered over the phone......... )

I got the Growing with music books from the BKA bookshop fairly recently.

Ah - sorry - I stand corrected!

We've been to JG but missed out on Kodaly! Trouble is, VN's conductors are strict and it won't do to miss orchestras on Saturdays to visit a Kodaly session until we are fortunate to find a day when borough orchestras are off but STP is on! I know April is really quiet for orchestras so will look out...

Cyrilla- Is there an age requirement to be able to come to the cousre on the 27th?

Hi Ceri - no, I'm ALMOST certain that there's no age barrier, but I will double check and get back to you.

Am I right in thinking you're about 15???!

I can't go.

*cries*

Don't cry!

I wanted to go!

You had a great time at the course in Birmingham remember????

*still crying*

BED!!!!!

Yeh, I am 15

Cyrilla, I have just sent you a PM.

Hey noodle,

glad that you had a good time with Cyrilla the other week. I had the opportunity to visit with Cyrilla at jr guildhall last July and I was inspired by the experience.

I'm now about 7 weeks into my first term of Kodaly Musicianship class. Luckily in my class there is an about even split between 'professional' musicians (mostly teachers) and adult learners (mostly between grade 3 and 6 standard on our respective instruments). I'm slowly gaining in confidence, and will now even attempt to sing pentatonic scales on my own in front of the class! David, our teacher, has seemingly endless patience with us all.

I started the course thinking that I would improve my aural skills, and while they have improved beyond measure, I have actually discovered far more about music theory. While the proud owner of a 15 year old Grade 5 theory certificate, I have never really understood about harmony, to be able to hear the different chords, to work out a basic harmony for a song. I still have a long way to go but for the first time I'm actually being taught some of the skills and ideas that underpin my playing.

I'm glad that I have started study music using the Kodaly method. It has improved my confidence in myself as a musician and increased my desire to learn more.

Lis

Hello onion! *waves furiously*

I'm SO glad that you're enjoying David Vinden's class and getting so much out of it, even after such a short time.

My group have their end-of-course Elementary exam in two weeks' time and are getting a tad stressed about it - but you won't have to worry about such things for a long time yet!!!

I too have a lovely mix of students - from a professional violinist with perfect pitch to a lawyer with Grade 4 piano MANY moons ago.

Carry on enjoying and learning. I warn you - Kodaly's a bit addictive....

Nice to hear from you again!

Nice to see you Cyrilla,

hehehe!! so far we haven't even mentioned exams yet, so the less I know about that the better! Its scary enough to have to sing and play in canon!! And the less said about dictation at the moment ...

Kodaly may be addictive, but I think I am going to need a couple of years at elementary level before moving on. I am rapidly nearing the bounds of my competencies!

I'm hoping to make it to cambridge - trying to scrounge a lift! It would be nice to have a whole day of Kodaly!

Thank you for the inspiration, Cyrilla.

Lis

Aw, I'm sure you're NOT 'reaching the bounds of your competence'! It just FEELS as if you are!!! By which I mean, because of the nature of the beast, you are always being stretched just that little bit more and little bit more - so it feels as if you're always at the limit of what you can do.

But....like climbing a mountain...it's only when you look down that you realise how far you have come since you started the climb!

Really hope you can make it to Cambridge. I'm going - don't know if I can be of any help lift-wise??

Hi onion!

Thanks! I was supposed to be at Guildhall the same day as you in July, but unfortunately I didn't make it! You're soooo lucky to be able to do a weekly Kodaly class. I might be going to Cambridge, but I'm not sure yet.

Might see you next Sunday!

I am going to the course next Sunday- The cheque is in the post (manage to persaude my parents to let me "borrow" some money) .

Yeah Ceri, that's excellent news. you'll have a great day.

Cyrilla, i'm coming from Northolt but I can get to most parts of London by tube and train. Would you be coming though London at all on your way? (I've no idea of how you would drive to Cambridge from your neck of the woods.) If it is possible to have a lift it would be great.

Noodle, glad that you finally made it over, it was a shame not to get to meet you in July. I hope you can make it to Cambridge on Sunday. It sounds like a good opportunity to experience Kodaly musicianship as well as to learn more repetoire.

Hope to see you all on Sunday!

lis

Yes! Hopefully see you on Sunday! Hope I can go!!

I am glad I can come. Sounds like it will be interesting!

Can anyone give directions from the A14 to the Course for sunday please?

Has Moo not sent you a map, Ceri???

PM her if she hasn't. Sorry, I don't know Cambridge very well so I have absolutely no idea where it is!

Ok, I will. My parents don't know Cambridge either.


That makes two of us

I too had a brilliant day at Guildhall (last year) observing Cyrilla and other classes (Dalcroze, individual violin lessons) too - wonderful, all of it. Shame we weren't there at the same time, Noodle - 'twould have been good to meet you!

Violinia

It would be great to meet you too! I'm going back after Christmas - hopefully. I don't suppose you'd fancy another visit to Guildhall?

Apologies to Noodle as this is a bit off topic.

I've missed at least 3 initial Kodaly sessions, having had to deal with some more important and urgent personal matters, that I seriously wonder if I can still follow/cope if I suddenly turn up at the 4th Kodaly session? Shall I wait for another term (maybe 6 months later) for the next Kodaly class? I can sing and have had some basic choral lessons with an opera singer before (as a teenager in my previous life! ) BUT NO formal training whatsoever in music.

Any other thoughts???

Many thanks indeed.

Tess

Sorry Tess, I don't think I can answer your question. Maybe your teacher will be able to advise you.

Just wanted to say hello to everyone at Cambridge today. I'm really disappointed I can't be there. It would have been nice to meet a few more forum members as well as learn more about Kodaly.

Tess, the best thing would be to ask your teacher.

I would have thought it would be best to go along to the 4th session and see how it goes. You will soon know if it feels as if you have missed too much or not!

Personally I would probably think it will be OK. The teacher can always run through with you anything you've missed. The work is very cumulative so there will be lots of reinforcement throughout the course anyway.

Good luck and go for it, is my advice!

PS Many thanks for your PM - will reply very soon!

Hi,

I have just got back from the Kodaly Course in Cambridge. It was great!! Really enjoyed it. Glad I went. Cyrilla, I hope you are felling better.

The class at the beginning was great + singing games. Well worth getting up at 6am to get there for 10am (even though arrived 30 miniutes earlier).Learnt abit of Solfege and the handsigns.

Thanks Moo, and thanks Cyrilla for mentioning Kodaly in the First plave (it was a shame you could not be there).

Ceri
(I'm still humming Ba-nu-wa)

I'm glad you had such a great time! I'm just sorry I couldn't have been there.
Aw well, I'm sure I'll have plenty of other opportunities.....