Hi everyone,

Nils has had several sax lessons now. He was getting a nice sound (or at least I thought it sounded nice) when practising over half term. However since then his teacher has told him to change his mouth position. What he's got to do now, if I understand this right, is to tuck his bottom lip further over his lower teeth, and to press down quite hard with his top lip. Nils says it's very painful to play like this, because his lower teeth are pressing so hard against his lip.

Is this normal, or has Nils misunderstood the instructions? I suggested that he play for four or five minutes every hour or so, rather than having a longer practice time, in the hope that it will toughen up the inside of his lip. Much in the same way as a guitarist has to develop collouses on the fingertips.

Any advice gratefully received, because at the moment Nils is not enjoying playing - and who can blame him if it's hurting so much.

Thanks

Amber
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It should not be painful, and I've never been told to press really hard with the top lip. Because he has now changed his embouchure slightly, maybe it might take a while to get used to it. However, I've recently been told to play in a different way and I don't get any pain. If it continues I'd suggest you speak to his teacher.

Thanks Nat. Nils has just come in and says ...

it's the muscles at the edge of the mouth (at each side), and they start to ache after a while. And he says he's been told to push upwards with his bottom teeth and to squeeze tighter. Does that make sense?

Thanks

Amber
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My cheek muscles tend to ache if I have been playing for a long period, but other than that they don't.

I've never heard of squeezing tighter, for sax you don't need an incredibly tight embouchure.

What is his embouchure like? Does he kind of smile when he plays or does he kind of make an 'oo' shape as if he was whistling?

It should be the latter...well as far as I've been taught.

Althought the embouchure should be firm, it shouldn't be so tight that it hurts.

Thanks Nat, I'll pass that advice on to him. (He's holed up in the lounge watching TopGear with David now!)

I remember him telling me about the "smiling" mouth shape he was told to make. I remember it because I tried to do it and got absolutely nowhere! From what you're saying, I wonder if it's more a case that he's just trying too hard?

I think you're right in suggesting I speak to his teacher.

Many thanks

Amber
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He should't smile... really.

Get him to smile and then make a shape as if he was whistling, repeat it a few times and then try to play. (playing with the shape as if he was whistling)

I have some stuff I can scan you, if you send me your email address.

Thank you. I'll PM you my address.

cheers

Ambs
x

I've sent something.

It's not turned up.

Hm..it might take a while..I'll send it again just incase.

OK, thanks

Sent

Nope, still not arrived. I'll go and put the kettle on. And the old saying goes.... A watched Inbox never boils. Or something like that!!

I'm hoping I didn't make a mistake typing the email address. It's the one that's listed on my Card here.

Yeah that is the one I sent it too. If it hasn't come in the next 15 mins I will try again

It shouldn't hurt at all. It should be the fleshy part of the lower lip on the teeth, any further and it will hurt a lot. I tend to be as relaxed as possible with my embouchure - no smiling, as little unwanted tension as possible (and if you play through the pain the tension will get worse and more painful), basically just enough to make a seal around the mouthpiece. But I also play the flute as well so I may well be more relaxed than the average sax player.

I have scars in my mouth from playing with an embouchure that was similar to what you described (school got a new teacher and she insisted i change). Boy did it hurt. Especially with on an average day I'd be playing for 1 - 2 hours before i even started my practice. Luckily I was able to get advice from my big band director (it was outside of school) who identified the problem easily when i told him about the pain. I think that was really the beginning of the end for me with that teacher and by the end of high school I wasn't taking lessons on sax at all and, with the big band director's advice and that of any other good sax players i met, I still managed to study music for my degree with a double major of flute and sax. Even while doing that there were sax students who were sorting out their embouchure even as late as a couple of months before their final recotal.



Correct me if i'm wrong everyone but isn't what Nils decribed closer to a clarinet embouchure? Sorry if I'm way off track but I have noticed a link between sax embouchure problems and teachers who main instrument is clarinet.

Yes.

Hmm, I dont really know cos im only learning, but doesnt sound quite right does it?
I was told once that you must 'whistle' and smile tight enough to stop air loss from the sides of your mouth and i have found that the sides of my mouth do kind of ache at the end of a good practise, but it is kinda nice! Its a quiver kind of tingle ache that I find funny.
Ive found a top D needs more pressure on the reed from the lower lips and teeth to get a nice tone, but this isn't the constant really...
Id say seek advice from an alternative teacher or go to a music shop and ask questions..