Having had a checkered past on these forums I thought it time to cause yet more discuss and heated debate and put across the poor parents view point.

In general parents are your customers and not your pupils. It is an unfortunate fact but they normally hold the purse strings. We pay for our little darlings to be taught how to play a specific instrument(s) or theory in some cases. Again a sad fact of life is that most of us will not have a musical bone in our body, we will not know what is good/bad for our children musical development. Some observations from other threads:

a) Many of us dont know that writing note names on music is bad for children, we only believe we are helping and not hindering. Tell us the first time we do it and remind us the second on the third occation say if we keep doing it you will have to stop lessons or rub them out! We will soon learn.

If we sit in on lessons and interupt put us right or tell us when we can talk and why it has to be that way. Again we will learn, if we dont ask us to leave and come back if we are not happy doing that say you can no longer teach our child. Again we will soon learn.

c) I for one think it is the height of rudness to be late for anything it drives me up the wall when I am and when people do it to me. Hence I am always 5 min early for any appointment. Tell me this isnt appropriate. If you do that though be sure you are ready to start bang on to the minute my childs lesson starts. I suspect that means the previous pupil will have to pack up early. What many of you are saying in fact means I as a parent will lose time from my childs lesson i.e. I pay for 30mins teaching not 25 with some pack up/unpack time. To make your system work you would have to have 5 - 10 min bounderies between lessons. Make the conditions explicit when a pupil joins.

d) Explain to us the best way of practising. i.e. is it 15 mins a day or 2.75 hours on a Sunday. Again I know how muscle/mind memory works a lot of parents dont and will see little difference between the two options.

e) Explain how we can enourage our children musically.

f) Explain why little Jonny isnt ready for his grade one. Just because I have asked if he is going to do it dont assume I am pushy I am just looking for progress and that is ONE way of measuring it. Along with the improvement on my ears of course LOL. If little Jonny isnt ever going to make it to grade x tell me why, tell me how I can halp etc.

g) Realise that there are (normally) two parents who have an interest in the child. These could be in harmony/conflict, one could be musical the other not. Assume a lack of knowledge and be pre-pared to be surprised.

h) My child does so much after school because he/she wants to. I want to give him/her everything I didnt have and allow him/her a choice going forward. If you believe the child is doing too much and will not be able to practise effectivly, tell me so. Say how much they need to put in etc I can then make an informed decision based on the best possible advice.

I) Music teachers vary greatly .... In fact you'll be amazed at how much. What is appropriate behaviour for one isnt for another. We maybe used to working in a particular way with an old teacher. If this isnt right for you tell me i dont read minds (well not yet!).

J) Keep us informed, may be a termly report or a brief discussion let us know hat has been achieved, tell us what is coming and what we have to look forward too.

All ways rember you are the professional selling your services. Act like it, tell me how it is and how it is going to be if I dont like it I can look else where. This may impact your income in the short run but if you are right you will not be short of business and people will treat you with the repect you deserve.

Runs for cover, to get lunch.

My normal excuse spelling etc ....

Thanks for that.
As I only teach on a small scale I have not had too many parent problems and I think mostly I have managed to deal with them ok but you advice is well worth bearing in mind.

We covered a bit of this in the later stages of the "Losing a student - is it me?" thread. Have a read!

Excellent post KMT. I think your points could be applied to many situations, not only teacher-parent.

I have the impression that most teachers don't like to come across as too business-like because they want a good relationship with the parent, yet I much prefer someone who is a bit stricter, well organised and has clear rules for how the child should learn. They appear far more professional than those who try to act like a friendly aunt/uncle.

That's why I've often said that it would be useful for parents, but possibly even more so for teachers if they had a small leaflet/paper they gave to new parents with their rules, advice for practising, info about exams, what to expect etc. That would remove problems like the mother staying in the same room...etc

Actually, this forum would be a great place to discuss what to put in the document.




First time I've heard that. I don't see any harm when they're first learning.
There are times when I play the clarinet in the altissimo register, the notes are a million lines above the stave and I sometimes write the note in to remind me.

I can't imagine a concert pianist doing this though. Sounds like a sketch for that pianist in Little Britain!

Steve

If the notes to be played are really high up then yes, write the notes in, however when children are learning if you start off by always writing the note names on the music then they get reliant on that and struggle to read without the names there. I speak from experience I've had with children like that.

I totally agree with the comment on paying for 30 minutes and only getting 25. THis is disgraceful and sometimes I think done deliberately so that a student does not get, maybe 35 minutes. It is also offputing for students to sit there playing whilst someone else is waiting - therefore the last few minutes of their lessons is more or less wasted. I don't know if there is governing body for registered teachers but one of the rules should be that there is a 5-10 minute boundary in between times for packing up/saying cheerio. I had one terrible teacher who really only gave you 20 minutes. I now have a wonderful lady who comes to my house and gives freely of her time, so yes there is an enormous difference between different teachers.

Totally agree. I think our children only did this a few times right at the beginning.

For some strange reason I don't need to do it for notes way below the stave, only those about one octave above. Not that I do it often. My clarinet altissimo is banned by the Geneva convention!

Steve

I have the opposite problem - my lessons sometimes last an embarrasingly long time! Not that I object, but I have offered to pay for 45 min lessons, seeing as how I usually end up with nearer to that than to the 30 min I pay for but my teacher says it's OK.

I can understand the problem with paying for 30 minutes and only getting 25, BUT 5 minutes inbetween each lesson soon adds up - after 6 lessons there's a whole potential slot which is wasted which for some teachers is a lot of money. After a term of 10 weeks that's £100 lost; if it was 10 minutes between each, that would be double the amount of money lost. I personally leave a 30 minute break for dog-feeding and cuppa, which if necessary I eat into if running slightly late. But not everyone could afford to leave such a massive gap in the middle of their evening schedule. I'm lucky in that I also teach 2 days in a school which means I don't have to work until late every evening trying to fit in the same number of pupils but not everyone is in that position. QUOTE I now have a wonderful lady who comes to my house and gives freely of her time, so yes there is an enormous difference between different teachers. QUOTE.

Then you're very lucky - there are a lot of teachers for whom this is their sole income and they cannot afford to 'give freely of their time'. They need to pay the rent/mortgage/bills etc. and in order to do so they need to fit pupils in 'back-to-back'.

You would like me:

I run my business like a business.
My early grade students I do exactly half and hour and have become a master of timing. The next lesson starts exactly on time.
My higher grade students have 40 minutes and there is a 5 minute buffer before the next person.
Parents are always welcome and I give them a nice squishy sofa and a broadsheet to read.
I have a clear contract.
I run two concerts a year, do written reports on request, and always see the parents once a term at least to discuss progress.
I have at least one newsletter a term.
My customers are the parents who pay me, my pupils are their children. Both need looking after.

That is the way after having seen lots of teachers in action I decided I wanted to run my business.

I think it is absolutely a three way relationship - teacher, pupil, parent. But then I would say that, given that I've been in the Suzuki 'triangle' since my daughter started playing the violin at age 4 (now 11). If parents are taken into account/informed/viewed as a help rather than a hindrance, everyone benefits. Because I have been to just about every one of my children's lessons (son plays viola and piano, also by the Suzuki method), I can see how much the teachers invest in my children, and that in turn makes me want to support the teachers in any way I can. Having made such a large time commitment myself, which until they started to practice independently at around age 10/11, included being very much involved in home practice pretty much every day, I have every interest in seeing that my children view music as something important in their lives. It's a commitment not just of time, but of emotion.

When my daughter also started to play the harp, with a non-Suzuki teacher, I made sure that I would be able to come to lessons, at least initially, so that we could continue in the way we knew worked well. I knew from my Suzuki experience not to interrupt the teacher, to save questions for the end, and to make sure that I too was clear about what was expected in that week's practice.

Among committed parents, I think there's quite a hunger for information and education about how best to support their children. At our recent Suzuki strings weekend workshop (where parents were with their children in classes and concerts and various activities for two days), the parent education session was packed out, with people standing listening in the corridor.

So my experience is that the more parents are included, appropriately guided by the teacher, the more everyone benefits.

BTW, we are used to an overlap in lessons, as part of students seeing what other students are doing and either being encouraging and supportive of the younger ones, or aspiring to what the older or more advanced students are doing. I like it that it's not a hermetically sealed experience, only emerging into daylight in the glare of a concert stage.

In my opinion it is the pupil's responsibilty for getting the instrument out etc. If they take a long time (surely it can't take more than about 1 minute?!?) then I would think it was their responsibilty to get their earlier to do it, and similarly stay on after the 30 minutes to pack it up again. If I had to allow 10 minutes between each lesson, then prices would go up to compensate for this. I would end up charging £12 per half hour instead of £9 to cover the gaps when otherwise I could be teaching.

David

How many 9 year old boys do you teach?

As the parent of one, I always think that it's probably a good reason to pop the champagne if they remember to actually bring their instrument, let alone open the case!



Steve

Maybe it's a silly question.... but why should any parent write note names on the music? If the child needs a reminder he/she should look them up themselves. If the child writes his/her own on then sooner or later it should sink in which is which? However it may well be worth checking they've got it right. (can well understand the problem with loads of ledger lines though )

You sound like my sort of parent, kmt63.

Don't live anywhere near Gainsborough, do you?

Steve

What about boys who insist on carrying everything themselves, preventing parents from discovering till way too late that the instrument case (carefully locked, with the key in his pocket...) is EMPTY!!?

kmt63, I like teachers to be up front too. With several instrument teachers plus short-term teachers when we are in NZ, I agree that teachers can have surprisingly different expectations - even though it's easy for both parents or teachers to assume that their own preferences are "just common sense".

CD, strictly speaking you're charging for the lesson as a unit, not by the minute, so there's no reason why you shouldn't work out your optimum hourly rate and then figure out what 35 minutes would be worth and charge that for your lessons, so each lesson includes 30 minutes' teaching time, and a 5-minute share of the 10-minute swap-over time. That gives you time to update your records too!

This business of writing note names on - it really does not help children as they simply look at the note names and not the values or position on the stave. Sometimes if I am aware this is happening we use my book in the lesson, not theirs, to check what they can do, especially when sightreading a new piece.
If the pupil is old enough to understand how simple codes work and enjoy coded messages, I explain that music is a secret code understood only by clever people who want to play music, and after all there is no point in having a code then writing out the message for EVERYBODY to understand - I have found this works.We then write a few words in code in their practice record eg CAGE or CABBAGE then I ask them to write one or two of their own making for the next lesson.

Unfortunately I can't do that yet as it's not time for my rates to go up, but I still reckon parents would feel they were paying for 35 minutes and only getting 30.

Our 12 yr old plays trumpet in the school's Big band and the orchestra (if it doesn't clash with a football match )

Picture a Saturday morning in June, getting ready to take him to his concert. Typical 12 yr old, he makes sure he has everything: hair gel, mobile phone, mp3 player, comb etc.

Ten minutes from the house, a loud scream from the back seat. He's forgotten his trumpet!

At least his brother doesn't have this problem. The piano won't fit in the boot!

Steve

I suppose parents like to feel they control something. The various TV "watchdog"-style programmes suggest that adults have handed over the driving of their lives to so many outsiders and specialists in blind faith, they'll tend to grab at anything they understand.

Most adults buy their TVs, cars, have their homes maintained without ever knowing what's what, and they've been stripped of so many of parental powers so they're really only puppets to whoever grabs the strings - an authority or seller/hawker/TV ad that insists that some frippery is a must have! So sending a child to a music teacher with no appreciation of what that entails is hardly different except they feel they ought to know something about it.

Some parents/adults are more aware of what's going on but they seem increasingly in the minority. The best thing for everyone is to wise up to what they're buying before they buy it.

Ws

They would, for sure.

I have a pupil who studies both keyboard and piano with me. During his first lesson, at which his mother was present (and continues to be so) I was aware of something happening behind me - Mother was videoing the lesson - sans permission!!
I made some comment about "smile to camera" and continued not wanting to upset a new apple cart.
This practise has continued, yet not once has she asked if I mind.
Once, when she didn't attend the lesson, I asked the pupil what happened to the video. He told me that he had to watch them before each practise session and often they were copied and sent to relatives in Hong Kong
Eventually I asked Mum why she did it, and was told that the previous teacher ( remains silent on that one) said it was a modern idea and saved keeping a notebook!!

I have recently successfully reverted the situation to a notebook, which I get the boy to write in while I dictate the notes often asking him what he thinks he NEEDS to make comments about. He seems happy about it and Ma hasn't complained.

Sorry if I've gone "off thread"

I am the long-suffering mother of a tuba player. One benefit of such a ludicrously proportioned instrument is that it doesn't accidentally get left anywhere. You can't help but know where the thing is at all times!

Sorry to go off topic, but I'm not sure if PMs are getting notified at the moment.

Suzukimom - my daughter's at a stage of choosing an instrument for her junior strings project lessons. She had never heard a harp before and has now become mad keen on it after one demonstration from a harpist. Until this point I had absolutely no knowledge about harps, but googling around a bit there seem to be a lot of questions which I wonder if you can help with, so we can assess how realistic an option this is;

- If you want to play classical music do you tend to start on a lever harp with a view to playing a pedal harp later? If so, how far can you get on the lever harp (eg gradewise) before you would first consider changing? If you do subsequently change to a pedal harp does that mean all those silky skills learnt operating the levers on the lever harp become worthless? Are pedal harp scales easy due to the ability to fix the right accidentals before you start the scale? Is a lever harp a difficult instrument to play in ensemble music, due to the greater difficulties in changing key as against a pedal harp? Is my research into pedal harps accurate in that they deteriorate in value, but new ones cost in the region of $US179,000 down to $US10,000 for the "Petite" range without 47 strings? Do harpists get an orchestral gig about once every 300 concerts? Are you supposed to lug your harp about with you, or have a harp in every port, a bit like with pianos?

sorry about that splurge, but if you (or anyone else) could help with any of it I'd be most grateful!

I am really sorry if I have mis-lead anyone. My comment on the 25min lesson in a 30 min slot was really an observation only. I have no objection to being expected to pack up/breakdown in the lesson time providing I am told this is the case.

When I book a music lesson I see it has hiring the teacher I pay for his/her time if my child take 30mins out of the teachers time that is what i sould pay. But I should reasonably expect to get more teaching in the time than anything else LOL children allowing of course!

I have ben really luck and had very good teacher who are all professional while maintaining a good relationship with myself and the children its a difficult balance to strike but when you do it nice!


Unfortunatly not as you sound like my sort of teacher. Being professional in terms of your music and your lessons and striking a good relationship with your students.

As dad all I really want to know is what is happening and if there are problems how I can help.

Being business like and kind hearted are not always mutually exclusive just normally percieved as such.

If I move your way I will look you up for some piano for my nippers!!

I don't know whether it's normal to do one or the other first, but I do know that level harp (clarsach) is now available to be examined right up to grade 8.

Due to the nature of key changes on the level harp, even at grade 8 you don't have to do melodic minors, and *as far as I'm aware* none of the scales would require a lever change right in the middle of a scale.


Depends to a certain extent on what the music is written for... pedal harps are able to play in any key, lever harps have more restrictions in that, and it's different changing key or similar in the middle of a piece... music written for it would not cause a problem as these things are taken into account - ie I have a copy of the Bach prelude in C which the Gounod Ave Maria goes with, and because it has been specifically arranged for lever harp all the lever changes are marked in.


Depends on how good the harp is... if you are very fortunate (like me) then your harp can actually rise in value considerably

A decent harp should hopefully improve with age a bit like a violin, as the soundboard settles and it mellows, especially if it is well looked after

If you look in the almost top right hand corner of your screen in the pale blue toolbar, it should tell you whether you have any messages: the PMs are working, for me at least.

Sorry I'm not that knowledgable but if I can help any other way ask or PM or whatever. Talk to erard who is a knowledgable harpist, and I'm sure there are others round here too... (have no brain and no other names spring to mind!)

I started on a pedal harp, but I was a full size person when I began!!!!

Hehehe, whereas a small girl is maybe half-sized!

I think you can get pedal harps suitabler for littluns though....

Quote :
"Due to the nature of key changes on the level harp, even at grade 8 you don't have to do melodic minors, and *as far as I'm aware* none of the scales would require a lever change right in the middle of a scale."

You do have to do melodic minors. Beginning at grade 5 you have melodic minor scales with one hand playing and the other hand flipping levers.

Usually you do start on a lever harp. If the aim is to eventually graduate to a pedal harp, you need to make sure that whatever lever harp you are buying/renting has full concert tension strings. (This is very important in order to build strength and facility from the beginning.) You can even begin with a lap harp (2 oct.) which is much less expensive to start with.

There is a fair amount of ensemble music out there for lever harps. If it is written for lever harp it is not any more difficult to play than pedal harp music played on a pedal harp.

If you do go out and buy a pedal harp, make SURE you have a knowledgeable harpist or harp technician look at it before committing to it. It is too easy to buy a bad harp and not know it. The harp should be able to hold its value at least. (If well played and taken care of.)

One question. Where do you live Zoda? I noticed you were using US money values, is that just because you are looking at US made harps or is that where you live?

Thanks, Sarah-Flute and Season, and to those who have PM'd me about harps - I'm beginning to get a clearer picture of what the issues are and how to think things through. I think the plan at the moment is to explore a little more about the practicalities - cost, how long it takes to tune a harp has been mentioned, and various other factors, and if JSP think we can find a way through all this, to give real thought to going with our daughter's preference. Season - I live in Chester. You are right, the websites are in $US and I couldn't be bothered to find the conversion. Also US$179,000 for a new harp just sounded like a nice round sum to quote

I am the long-suffering mother of a tuba player. One benefit of such a ludicrously proportioned instrument is that it doesn't accidentally get left anywhere. You can't help but know where the thing is at all times!




When I was at school, I once lost my double bass - I forgot I'd left it on the bus!

That isn't as daft as it seems. However big, if you are used to lugging something around with you it just becomes natural to do so. You stop feeling the weight. When you leave it on a bus, say, that is because you are absorbed in something and do not notice that the familiar weight is no longer there.

Still embarassing, though

Steve

This reminds me of Victor Borge's story about this bloke who sees him at the airport and says to his wife "I wish I had brought my piano with me". Victor gives a modest little bow, as the wife says,

"Why?"

husband: "Because the tickets are on it"

Incidentally, as a regular advisor that bananas work as a relaxant, it is great to read why (your signature).

Not that I understand, you see, merely that I am happy to have a scienific reason to carry on stuffing myself with them.

Steve

I only found out after reading a long thread about bananas on here, and it seemed to be the first useful thing I could put in a signature. I must say, though, it is quite a coup to welcome SteveHopwood to the merry bananamen of Sherwood.

Yaay. Me and the merry bananamen of Sherwood - Yo Man. Way To Go.

we really need a banana eating smilie!

(actually that's pretty important - I wonder if the forums administration team would mind being woken up - or should I wait until 7am tomorrow morning. Hmmmm.....)

Watch this space. YAP will come up with one.

D'oh, apologies. reading the syllabus online to check wasn't a good idea as it comes out rather tiny!!! Well still... I think melodics with one hand and flipping the necessary levers sound considerably less scary than two hands and changing things with your feet

kmt63, I wish you were one of my pupil's parents! We'd get on fine.

Gerroff. I bagsied him first.

LOL ... nice to feel wanted .....

bit late replying - busy weekend with the harp, actually!

Because we're in Scotland my daughter's harp is a clarsach. She didn't start it with the intention of playing the pedal harp later, because she loves the celtic repertoire for itself, and because she is specialising in singing to her own clarsach accompaniment. There are however plenty of students here who start on clarsach and go on to pedal harp. I have seen small sized pedal harps played by children - there were a few at this year's Edinburgh International Harp Festival.

So I'm afraid I can't answer your technical questions about scales and the differences between the two. The clarasch offers plenty enough riches for my daughter, but that's in the Scottish context. If you're in a different part of the country the pedal harp may offer more opportunities. The clarsach society has branches up and down the country, with various 'days to play' at which players get together for group and solo playing and much chat and socialising. I don't know about the pedal harp set up - the only thought I've had in that direction is through my children being in the National Children's Orchestra of Scotland for their violin/viola playing, and seeing the solitary concert harp, and thinking that the sectional rehearsals can't be all that chummy!

The clarsach does have a grade 8 syllabus, but my daughter isn't doing anything with grades until grade 8, if at all, so I can't help on that point. I am looking forward to seeing what the harp repertoire is like outside of the clarsach world when we go to the Suzuki world convention in Turin next year - my daughter is going as a violinist, but we will go to some of the harp sessions. I don't think there's a celtic piece at all, so it will be interesting to compare her experience with theirs.

Thanks for the reply, Suzukimom. It seems that in your daughter's case, harp playing and a bowed instrument can complement each other - perhaps the bowed instrument gives more opportunity for orchestral music, and the harp is an easier and more attractive solo instrument from an earlier stage. Of course that then raises the question of how attractive an option the harp is in a programme which is all about playing in groups!

Added to which all this may be academic, as it all depends which kids want to do what in the group!

Yes, they do seem to complement each other. I'm glad we have the group set up for the clarsach - I think it would be more difficult to sustain as a solitary instrument, but maybe we're conditioned (brain-washed??) by our Suzuki group experience with the violin and viola!

I'll just mention another slightly tongue in cheek selling point of the clarsach - it's possible to make some serious money playing in posh hotels as a late teen/student holiday/evening earner. My daughter is already looking forward to the cash! Violinists are ten a penny, but harpists have rarity and elegance on their side.

Right, I'm going down that mill now, and get me kids back

*puts on doting fatherly face - "children, oh children! want to go to a nice hotel????"*

LOL

Was just thinking about giving my little boy a cap and a brush and sending him up a chimney.

and YES I AM JOKING !!!! (I wouldnt give him a brush he can use his hands!)

lol, actually kmt63, I heard from my mum who read an article that chimney sweeps earn a fantastic amount of money these days because there are so few about and therefore are in great demand!

*chim chimmery chimmery chim chim cher-ooo....*

I know a friend is one. He earns every penny though as it is still not very nice work!

He even makes money for charity by going to weddings and charging a nominal fee!

As an aside Chim, Chim Cheroo is one of my all time fav musical theatre tunes. My daughters had to dance/sing to it recently.....