Is there any method that I can object the exam result, or complain the examiner? Becuase I find the result is really unreasonable.

I suppose you could write to the board, but you'll probably receive a reply saying that they fully support the examiner. Why do you ask? What went wrong?

The procedure for complaining about a result is outlined here:

http://www.abrsm.org/?page=exams/regs/ukIr...kIre_03_15.html

Thank you for all your prompt and useful replies. My student was doing grade 6 violin exam, and the main reason to fail is lack of vibrato. The examiner said the intonation, speed are good. but vibrato is not enough, therefore lack of character.

Do you think I can object?

If I remember correctly the syllabus expects violin candidates to demonstrate vibrato from grade 5, so it may be difficult to argue from that point of view, depends what is determined "enough" really. Saying that, some big name conductors (Roger Norrington for one), tells the whole orchestra to play without vibrato.

By all means appeal if you feel there are grounds for one. Fortunately I've never had to do this so I don't know what it's like. Hope it gets sorted.

I got very similar comments in my Grade 6 exam in the summer. My second piece according to my accompanist was excellent, though I failed it with 18 due to "lack of character and warmth". The piece in fact was muted throughout and littered with harmonics, making it very difficult to "add warmth". I passed overall and didn't object, but I suspect as it was an alternative piece, the examiner didn't know it at all, hence the comments.

You say the main reason for failing was lack of vibrato, what were the other reasons? Vibrato is expected from grade 5 and above on all string instruments, so I don't really think you'll achieve much by complaining. Having said that, there must have been problems elsewhere in the exam, not using vibrato wouldn't cost over 50 marks. Could you student improve on scales, aural and sight-reading -the areas where vibrato isn't essential.

Just wanted to add, my daughter aged 8 took grade 3 cello in July and one of the comments on her mark sheet was her over use of vibrato!!!!!!!! You cant win!!

This has led me to wonder how equivalent the different syllbuses are for the same grade. A friend (who has played piano since about 7) passed grade 6 on saxophone from scratch in 18 months but took 6 years to get grade 6 violin. He passed but not brilliantly. It could be him (and his teacher has not exactly been inspiring), but he thinks the sax was lots easier.

Does anyone ever have thoughts on this? Does a strings examiner have to be a string player?

No. The examiners for the Board will not necessarily play the instrument they're examining, which may or may not be a good thing. There was something on the main website about why not a while ago, perhaps someone can post a link?

I did once hear of an examiner who was examining Grade 8 harp, so spent half of the previous evening getting the low-down on the harp repertoire and syllabus.

Winnie, what were the breakdown of marks, and for what pieces? I'm not a string player so not very fluent in violin repertoire and technique, but I would nevertheless have thought that vibrato would be appropriate for some exam pieces but not others. In particular, how did your pupil do in their aural, where vibrato isn't at issue at all?

curacao, interesting question. Some people just gel with a particular instrument, but all have their easy and not-so-easy aspects.

Piece A - 19, B-17, C-18. I know some pieces require vibrato. Those she played were fast in tempo, therefore vibrato might not be so obvious. She actually did lots of vibrato on long notes. (bear in mind, she is only a grade 6!) We followed the phrasing and dynamics carefully as recommended on the book. We also followed the ABRSM CD. I really don't know what's wrong with the examiner. She is an old lady, maybe she doesn't like young and beautiful girl.

you can object, but its going to cost you £15 according to the complaints procedure




I think the violin, is alot harder to play than a saxaphone. I have pupils who've been playing the sax for couple of months and on grade 3-5 and and they still can't pass a grade 1 piano, and they've been playing piano for 2-3 years.

I can't believe a student can fail just because of vibrato! Seems ridiculous. I notice that my daughter also has a knack of doing vibrato on long notes (it's easier!) and chooses to ignore it for short notes and really fast phrases. Does THAT mean she'll be likely to fail her grade 6 exam IF she chooses to take it? Vibrato is meant to convey musical expression/character and some pieces are such that they just sound better with less or no vibrato in certain parts!!! Even a listener (not a violinist) knows this...

What about her scales, Winnie? Scales could be an easy place to acquire good marks. And, what were her SR and aurals like?

Were you accompanying her? I'm just wondering if you were actually in the exam room to know that she did as she had rehearsed and wasn't so nervous on the day that all the details got lost. It has been known to happen.

No, Tess, I don't think it's possible to fail solely for lack of vibrato. Maybe this student took the exam too soon. How did she do in scales, aural and sight-reading?

How does she compare with your other grade 6 students?

I am preparing my first grade 1 recorder pupil and it strikes me that the recorder grade 1 syllabus is a lot easier than the grade 1 piano. There are only three one octave scales/arpeggios to do for the technical section, all major, whilst the piano syllabus has four two octave major scales, two minor scales, five one octave arpeggios and five one octave broken chords (no D major - don't know why as it's not that difficult). These have to be played with either hand. The pieces don't look especially difficult either compared with the piano pieces. Perhaps jo-clarinet and other teachers who teach both instruments would like to comment, as they have more experience than me.

From personal experience of playing cello I would say that, for me at least, the technical problems of playing a stringed instrument compensate for the difficulties of co-ordinating two hands on the piano and I do not think the lower grades are particularly easy, but others may disagree.

I was accompaning her. Her performance was good, not nervous at all, normal.

The examiner also failed her scales and sight reading by 1 mark.
Comment on sight reading: This often fairly accurate but there were some rhythmic slips. So does it mean I have to play 100% correct inorder to pass?

Comment on B: Intonation was generally good but this performance was almost devoid of vibrato. Therefore fail.

What kind of examianer was that?! When I did my Advanced level - Romance in F by Beethoven, my vibrato was even worse than my student, but I passed. Does it mean I was lucky? Or does it mean the standard of ABRSM examiners varies, and they need to standardise first!

I don't mind to pay GBP15 to get a fair answer.

I think the List A and List B pieces in the early grades of recorder can usually be learnt much more quickly than the equivalent piano grade pieces, but the List C 'studies', which often need nimble fingerwork, high notes etc, seem to take longer to learn and are often quite difficult to bring off well in an exam.

As regards scales, yes, there are far fewer than for the piano, but there's the matter of sound-production - judging breath-control etc - which can be very difficult for some beginners. The slurred scales in particular tend to need an awful lot of work before they sound tidy and well in control! And the finger movements involved are more complicated than those for the piano - I don't think there's anything as awkward in the Grade 1 piano scale/arp/chord fingerings as going from low E to F, A to Bb, G down to F, C down to Bb etc on the recorder for pupils at that Grade. It's swings and roundabouts really, I think!

I've got two pupils at the moment who are working towards Grade 1 on both piano and recorder, and at the moment their piano scales are quite a bit tidier than their recorder scales!

It's not strictly on-topic, but what the hey!

When I did my degree (Computer Science) my banker subject was Discrete Mathematics. Sure enough, in my finals I gained a mark of 98% (I've no idea where that other 2% got to!)

However, the exam moderator decided to moderate the marks and I was downgraded to 85% or something. Naturally I appealed, since mathematics is not a normative subject, so if you're right, you're right. It turned out that I was right, it was the exam that wasn't right. It was deemed "too easy", and so all examinees had their marks reduced.

This struck me then, and strikes me now, as utterly unfair. For a start, the exam had been moderated in advance (i.e. assessed as to whether it was fair). Secondly, as students, we can only sit the exams that are set. If in my Grade 8 piano exam I thought that the J S Bach Allemande was "easier" than the "Prelude and Fugue" (which I did, incidentally) then I should not lose marks because someone later decides that the Allemande isn't hard enough.

Need I add that my appeal was rejected? The problem with engaging with academe in this way is that, not surprisingly, they stick together.

With respect to your particular problem, I think it seems somewhat unfair, as the use of vibrato should be a matter of personal preference or interpretation, but it may be that at the particular grade the student needs to be able to demonstrate that he or she can employ vibrato, whereas at higher grades may choose to use it or not.

Good luck in whatever you decide.

Presumably because it would involve using F# - none of the G1 piano arpeggios/broken chords use black notes.

Winnie

In the UK there are very strict rules about the timescale in which you can appeal against a decision. You will not get a new result even if you do appeal because the exam probably wasn't recorded and so it would be your pupil's word (and yours as the accompanist) against the examiner.
The ABRSM website regulations for the UK say as follows:
Practical Examinations; Appeals concerning the validity of results should be made only by the applicant and must be addressed in writing to the Director of Examinations. Such appeals should be postmarked within 14 days of the results' despatch from the Board, accompanied by a fee of £15 per candidate (or £150 for a group of ten or more candidates) and a copy of the mark form(s) concerned. The Board aims to acknowledge these appeals within three working days, and to respond with the outcome within three weeks of the acknowledgement. A full and thorough investigation will take place by the Quality Assurance Manager and/or the Chief Examiner. Occasionally, the Board may request a recording of the candidate performing the examination pieces and a selection of the technical requirements for review by the Chief Examiner. An independent person may be involved at this stage. Should any appeal prove to be substantiated, the fee will be returned and a voucher issued entitling the candidate to enter again at the same grade in the next examination session. If the appeal is unsubstantiated, the fee will be retained and the mark form(s) returned with a detail response.

I don't know what the regulations are if you are not in the UK - maybe your Local Representative can help you?

I know several Examiners and, from what they tell me, whether they are young or old, they do not favour young or old, male or female candidates. They try to be fair and, as I understand it, they are regularly trained and moderated to ensure the right results are given. But examiners are also human and I'm sure must sometimes make mistakes. If most of the sections in the exam failed, then presumably the examiner just felt, however disappointing for you both, that your candidate was not up to passing at Grade 6 level - I feel sure vibrato alone wouldn't be enough to fail (especially if all the scales, sight-reading and aural were strong), though as others have said, vibrato is expected from Grade 5 onwards.

Before you raise an appeal (if you have time to do this) check out the assessment criteria in "These Music Exams" for Grade 6 to see (under each part of the exam) what constitutes good enough playing for a pass and what is just a fail (the marks you have given to date are just on the borderline of failing). That may help you know how best to handle this.

Hope you get this resolved but if you wish to appeal, my advice would be to get on with it quickly.

Thanks Jo - perhaps I'm just lucky that my pupil is really keen and has mastered the scales quite quickly, although the slurred ones could be tidier, as you comment. I don't have any others to compare him with, so your observations are interesting.

Oboist,

Yes I have checked on that book "These Music Exams". Of course if they want to fail a candidate, they can make up any reason.

Any professional violist can tell me, a 10 years old with 1/2 size violin, can he/she vibrate well? I mean can the vibrato be very significant? This year I have heard of many unfair comments such as a girl was doing grade 5 piano - B3 (Burgmuller- La Tarentelle) . The tempo as suggested was something like 120 - 144 which is extremely fast. And the comment said, the girl was playing too fast, therefore marks deducted. Can you guys believe it.

I think it would be better if we bring a recoder, like MP3, into the exam room secretly. Just in case.

Yes. What the examiner probably meant was that it was too fast for her to cope with all of it at the same speed.

Winnie, I feel for the little girl. My daughter is 9 and has a 1/2 size violin so I know how hard it can be! The vibrato can be tricky! You have to be so good at the technique and to be working so very hard but VN is a bit luckier than most kids as she started vibrato very early on bit by bit. It's easier for a little one who started in grade 3 than one in, say, grade 5? Still, it's hard for someone so young. I recall once reading AmandaL posting somewhere that young kids fail grades 6 to 8 for lack of warmth/expression because it's hard for them to use vibrato to convey emotional maturity.

You ask - can the vibrato be very significant? Maybe not at my girl's level as Noodle pointed out and particularly since VN's playing lots of grade 5 stuff only but I guess an examiner of a 6th grader will be less merciful. A big difference btw those 2 grades...

As for playing fast, I don't think you'll get marks deducted just for playing fast. VN played one of her pieces by Handel VERY fast indeed but instead she got very positive comments. It depends on whether the girl managed to sustain all the "details" in contrasts, dynamics, etc, whilst playing fast!

It's sad Winnie but as she has failed her scales and SR as well, it'll be very hard to overturn the result. I once heard VN's teacher encouraging her to get her scales 100% perfect, as THAT would impress ANY examiner. VN's lousy at SR, you see, but luckily managed to pass it. *sigh*

I agree with noodle - there's no point in going full speed if the fingers aren't under control and it sounds rushed. If I had a pupil like this I would peg the speed back a fraction to avoid it sounding rushed and uncontrolled.

Exactly. There's no point in playing fast if the speed can't be maintained and the technique doesn't support it. From grade 6 they expect a much higher standard. Tess is right. Younger children fail grades 6 -8 for lack of warmth/expression and emotional maturity. The examiner of one of my grade 6 students this term wrote on his report "Persuasive playing, which reached the music behind the notes. Well done." There are very few 10 year olds who can really do that.

[quote name='noodle' date='Dec 16 2005, 06:47 PM' post='209603']
[quote name='Winnie' post='208703' date='Dec 15 2005, 06:12 PM']




Yes. What the examiner probably meant was that it was too fast for her to cope with all of it at the same speed.
[/quote]


I have heard the girl playing that song before, and it's perfectly ok, not rush at all and all under control. Also I don't think her teacher is that stupid and let her play so fast when the fingers were all out of control.




Just becuase on what you have written, I am sure what I have done (object the result) is correct.

"Just becuase on what you have written, I am sure what I have done (object the result) is correct."



~Obviously none of us were there at the exam, so we can only give our advice on the information given, if you believe your daughters result wasn't fair, then definately see about complaining.
from what you've written, and my opinion, I think the result may've been fair (remember we didn't hear her play!) but, it seems they failed hher on her lack of vibrato to creat emotion, however grade 6 is hard! it's not easy anyway, and they do expect children/adults to demonstrate a good understanding of the piece - the emotions of the music, = vibrato. Sorry if you think my opinion is wrong, it may well be, but again, this is only from what you've told us.

peace. Laura x

I'll be interested to hear what happens. I'm pretty sure you'll get a letter from ABRSM saying they are sorry you are disappointed with your result, but they fully support their examiners decision. Given that her marks were below pass in all sections, (even if she did get 18 for aural) she still wouldn't have passed. But still, I'm only an experienced teacher and accompanist, what would I know? I hear children doing violin exams all the time. No, I haven't heard this particular student but it seems from the marks that the examiner felt she just wasn't ready for grade 6 yet, technically and musically. I don't think it is just about a lack of vibrato either.

I'm not saying her teacher was stupid enough to allow her to play it faster than she was able, but the teacher isn't always there when a child practices and children do like to play things quicky especially in front of their friends. Under exam conditions too things tend to get played faster than they normally are.

Singing_la, I don't think your opinion is wrong at all.

Well, "thanks" for your comments and advices. I may not be a "very" experienced teacher and accompanist, I do accompany at least 30 students' exam (my student or other teachers' students) a year, all grades. I know what the "normal" standard is to gain a pass mark. Don't you think there are discrepancies / bias on the marking scheme?

What I wrote before was the comment from the examiner. Only HER point of view.

If the student failed becuase of lack of practice, not ready for the exam, or did badly during exams, I won't give such a big reaction! And I won't write so many things by using my second language!

I'm sorry about the exam mark, and no doubt it has come as a disappointment. However, such a young girl has plenty of time to re-take the exam, and it is still a very high standard to have reached. I don't think that contesting the result will be the best lesson for your girl though. You run the risk of allowing her to become over confident, which won't be beneficial in future aspects of her life. Perhaps accepting the exam mark gracefully and diving back into the music practise, will prove to be a more valuable lesson, and also a much better use of the time which would otherwise be spent bitterly dwelling on one dropped stitch?

If the horse throws you off just dust yourself off and get straight back on! (unless you break your neck, obviously... but I don't think AB exams are that life threatening!)

Amanda xxx

Thank you Amanda.

I take your point of view.