Do you think that pedals should be allowed to play Scarlatti music?

Granted it's no for the authentic rendition (especially if one wants to play it on a Harpsichord) but for modern renditions, do you think it's acceptable?

IrisH - LoonY

Surely they shouldn't be used?

For the authentic and stylistic approach definately not, but surely they could be for a modern day rendition? Like what Glen Gould did with the Bach Preludes and Fugues!

IrisH - LoonY

dunno, i'd use it sparingly.......

No pedals! Ever!!

I suppose it would very much depend on the individual piece - there are some Scarlatti sonatas I do use pedal, but the art is making sure noone can tell you're using the pedal. Pedal use has to be extremely discreet. Same for any Baroque or early Classical period composer.

As a guideline, I'd say avoid the sustain pedal in Baroque or early Classical works.

However, this is a guideline. If you ask experienced pianists, of whom chocolatedog is one, they will no doubt tell you that they do use pedal, at their discretion, in such works. If there's a specific piece you have questions about, ask your teacher.

This is for modern interpretations...yes?

IrisH - LoonY

I use a smidgeon to provide a bit of extra legato - I tell myself that the piano Scarlatti may have used (his patroness had five of them) was not as efficient as the modern beasty at damping. But I don't try and use it for harmonic effect.

I've heard you use that expression before. Whilst there are a great many good 'modern interpretations' of older works, these are not achieved by using pedal in a style suited to later works. Music which is more contrapuntal would be ruined if approached in such a manner - the interplay between the voices and so on would be eradicated.

Of all the performers I've seen, some making what you may regard as being more modern interpretations, they used the pedal to enhance tone and cover the odd difficult join. The pedal technique they used was entirely different to that they would use on later works; to be able to use the pedal as much as they did needed well-trained ear, good pianistic technique and an understanding of the piece. Which is where the answer of 'don't use pedal' comes in - if you really have to ask whether you should use pedal, you probably shouldn't be....

Edit: Fen has it spot on, in my opinion .

Pedals don't play anything.

Sorry. Couldn't resist. To answer more intelligently:

Earlier this week, I listened to a radio 3 broadcast of Angela Hewitt, renowned interpreter of Bach, playing several of the 48. Her interpretation was most 'romantic'; pedal, rubato, the lot. At times, she could have been playing Chopin. The result was magnificent.

Later in the week, I heard a performance of one of the suites by a pianist whose name I did not catch. The interpretation was 'precise'; 'correct'; no rubato; no pedal. The result was magnificent.

As others have indicated in their replies, it all comes down to skill, experience and understanding of the individual performer. Great music stands interpretation in many different ways.

What it will not withstand is mis-interpretation.

Scarlatti's music will often benefit from intelligent, musical pedalling. It will be ruined by unintelligent, unmusical pedalling, but so will every other keyboard piece played on the piano.

I doubt whether this helps, because you have asked a question that can only be answered by an individual after years of study.

Steve

Just seeing what other people's opinions were as all

IrisH - LoonY

Do you think if you used pedal in Baroque pieces in an exam, and managed a reasonable interpretation, you would lose marks for not following convention? Because, as in pieces from other eras, there's always a worry that an interpretation of a piece could be seen by an examiner as an inability to play it correctly, or a lack of knowledge about musical context. By that I mean you might play a piece well, but not stick exactly to the score and so lose marks.

I am afraid that there you are at the mercy of the individual examiner.

Case 1: the examiner thunders, Individual Interpretation Is Everything. Interest Me.
Case 2: the examine thunders, The Composer Is Paramount.
Case x: the examiner thnnders, The x is x.

It all comes down to how convincing the individual interpretion is. Angela Hewitt can romanticise Bach because she makes it work.

In my opinion.

I wonder how many others listened to the same broadcast and said, "What? You can't play Bach like this. It is appalling."?

Standard advice to exam candidates; stick within what is known and understood by the majority. Music and exams have little to do with one another.

Steve

Of course "No" for pedal(s)... it is about Classical period where piano was introduced. They only play harpsichord before that, and of course, without pedal(s). You have to be in their style, play it without pedal because there weren't any pedal for their pieces!

Except that these days, the piano is a totally different kind of instrument and as a performer you have to balance authenticity with the totally different sounds/character of a modern piano. If you really wanted to be truly authentic, then anything written for harpsichord etc should only ever be played on a harpsichord and never on anything else, which is a silly argument as you'll agree. And whenever I play Baroque repertoire, I do use the pedal, but as I stated earlier, it is extremely discreet, and adds to the tone quality and timbre without sacrificing any of the clarity. And they didn't mark pedal for their pieces for the simple fact that harpsichords didn't have pedals. If they'd had modern pianos in those days, they might well have marked pedal. (And written totally different music!!)

one of my scarlatti sonatas actually has a few pedal markings on the music :s my teacher doesn't want me to play them though

They could have been added by the editor... which edition is it? Mind you, some editors are really good and others are awful...!

Steve Hopwood is right. Mikhael Pletnev (?spelling) is another pianist who uses the pedal to play Scarlatti and sounds amazing. My husband, who looks after a harpsichord museum, reckons that there is a good chance that Scarlatti might have come across early pianos as his dates overlap with those of the earliest fortepianos, and it is known that the instruments were being supplied to the courts of Spain and Portugal at the time - and though these would not have had much sustaining ability and certainly sound much "drier" than modern instruments, Scarlatti's writing can sound spectacular on pianos as well as on harpsichords. I've listened to interpretations on both one after the other - there is no doubt that different approaches are needed to make most sense of the music for each - but that is what making the most of one's instrument is about. So, yes, you could use a pedal, but the difficulty is knowing how and when! Good luck...

Where?!

Personally I never use pedal for Baroque, and sparingly in Classical pieces. Harpsichords and clavichords had no sustain pedal or equivalent effect, so composers wouldn't have had sustain effects in mind.

Curiously though, neither were dynamic contrasts possible, but I do them with Bach or Scarlatti on a piano.

Is it the Russell Collection?

Yep, the Raymond Russel Collection of Early Keyboard Instruments. And I took history of instruments so we got down there and I had a shot at some of them. Not much success though. Our lecturer is a STUNNING keyboard player though.

They're on my list of things to visit in Edinburgh. Surpisingly enough, I still haven't visited yet .

Neil: if you're in Glasgow and want a go on a double manual harpsichord, let me know .

I am learning the Bach Toccata in E Minor BWV 914 for my DipABRSM and at first I did play with some pedalling but this was using 1/2 pedalling but even doing this I was finding that this can mask your technique especially when playing the adagio movement. Especially the runs when I was always tempted to use too much pedal sometimes to make a cleaner run.

My music teacher then recommended trying without pedalling and I noticed the sound sounded much cleaner and also I found I had to work a lot harder on my technique to make the piece sound a lot more legato. I do have a CD of Angela Hewitt playing the Bach Toccatas on piano even when she plays the adagio movement it seems she doesn't appear to use the pedal.

So now I am more inclined to not use pedalling only if it necessary as there is a bit at the end of the adagio movement with the dotted rhythm in the left hand there is a slight jump and I do use it just for these two notes but even when I doing this I barely touch the pedal.

I think it depends on your interpretation of a piece if you choose to use pedalling or not. I would say that you should try to avoid it and use it sparingly, but this only my opinion though.

I have always learnt pieces without pedal, and then added the pedal after I've worked hard on getting it legato (even on Romantic pieces). I think learning with the pedal often encourages lazy fingerwork and rests because masks the exact sound.

It's open Wednesday and Saturday afternoons, 2-5pm, and they have just acquired another ten instruments- a sizeable number of them are in playing condition. Some of the instruments even have pedals....(feeble effort to stay on topic) - including one of the harpsichords. You'll have to go and see why!
Entry is free, by the way. It might be worth checking the website for opening dates. The building itself is dwarfed by a ginormous building site at the moment, and the noise of sawing steel is a bit painful at times.

Dont forget some fortepianos and pedals up by the knees. So pedalling isn't as modern as people like to pretend. If you follow the music of Scarlatti or his contemporaries, the intention is clear. If he wants drama, a little pedal helps. However, the need for pedal in these compositions is infrequent. I use it quite a bit when playing Sweelinck.

PS dont forget, Scarlatti was a bit of a loony.