I'm sure there are many of us who are really dismayed at the recent events on the Forums, with valued members leaving and all the back-biting and general unpleasantness which is going on.

Our Forums used to be a fantastic place, and I always looked forward to seeing what was happening there, but now, although I still look in several times a day when I can, there's not nearly so much of musical interest to me. Many of the threads which started off with a genuine query now consist of idle - and sometimes not-very-nice - chit-chat, rather than proper responses to the query. I feel that it's fine to do this in the Forums Cafe, which was created as a chat-room, but that it should be kept out of the 'musical' parts of the Forums if possible.

Why has it all got like this? I wonder if the creation of the Cafe, useful though it is, is partly to blame.... people can be far more informal there and say more or less what they like, so cliques and factions and a slight lack of respect for other posters imperceptibly seem to build up, and that then spills over into the responses when more serious topics are discussed.

I feel really sad at the turn things have taken - perhaps we should all take a New Year's resolution to respect one another, and our differences, on these Forums, and to think more carefully before posting potentially hurtful comments?

I agree...I have felt the two contrasts of the forums. For instance, I have just spent the most wonderful 3 days with Andy (Oddball). Obviously, if these forums hadn't been created, it wouldn't have happened. Secondly, as I posted in my Christmas Speech thread, I feel the forums have helped me tremedously and I obviously started planning for the Leicester concert because of the 'community' spirit.

However, having just come back, from Bath, I am saddened. I knew vaguely what had been happening, as Andy had kept me posted, but I just don't want such a nice forum to change to such a bitter place.

Maybe it is because of the Christmas holidays, people have had more time to post, and maybe it'll calm down again when work/school returns.

I agree with you Jo and Nicki, and before I bow out of here for 2005 I'd like to add, these forums can be a wonderful resource to get help from other muscians of any category, be they students, teachers, what else. If they are abused like they have been in the last day or two, this all disappears.

Let's hope order is restored come the new year.

Happy New Year everyone.

Yeah! Let's all join hands and we'll all be good to each other for 2006!

As someone who STILL appears to be on the receiving end of snide, jeering and sneering comments and who also felt compelled to leave the forums for some considerable time as a result of hurtful remarks and insults, I would wholeheartedly like to concur with all that everyone has said so far.

Please let us all be able to state opinions, share experiences and offer advice in a respectful way without feeling that somewhere, on another thread, snide digs - and, frankly, out-and-out rudeness - are going to be made.

Thank you, jo, for starting this thread.

Wishing everybody all the best for 2006.

I must have missed something. I have only been "skimming the surface" of the forums in recent days as have not had time to read everything. I think I am sort of glad I missed whatever it was.....but I sincerely hope we haven't really lost anyone due to any bad behaviour. I know there have been instances in the past but this forum is by far the friendliest and most supportive I know and I have made loads of (in the first instance virtual but many of them now real) friends here and I don't think I've been here a year yet!

Yes lets make 2006 even more friendly, supportive and tolerant.

Well said Jo - New years' resolution sounds good.

*Backs out of thread*

I agree with everything that has been said, and it's a shame it has come to this. The New Year's resolution sounds like a good idea.

Let's hope 2006 is a much better year.
Car Expert

That's a good idea Jo. This forum can be a fantastic place not only as a source of information but for meeting new people and making new friends. I have made lots of new friends here and I know our friendships will continue even when I am no longer logging on to the forums.




Well said Cyrilla. I don't expect everyone to agree with me all the time but it is the way some people here respond which is part of the problem, not actually the content of their argument. Some people seem to think it is funny to laugh at others in other threads, mimic them by using words they have used elsewhere, but it isn't really, it is just plain ignorant and insensitive. This is just part of a much longer letter which I have forwarded to the moderators.

Yes, I'd like to echo agreement and thanks to Jo for this.

The forums have been great in the past and I'm sure they will be again.


Happy New Year to everyone!

sadly i think we have - katyjay has decided to give the forums a bit of a break, andante seems to be thinking of following - a thread called 'decision' where katyjay announced she wouldn't be on as often has developed into something pretty similar to this. i made my comments there and i don't think they need to be repeated here
hoxie
x

I think I must have missed it too. I support everything that Janexxx and others have said. Please don't spoil the forums with unpleasant behaviour.

I think Jo's suggestion is an excellent idea. I haven't noticed anything out of the ordinary recently, but I've felt something similar in the past few weeks as well. Let's hope for a good 2006.

When the internet started, communication was mainly by email, and fewer people were sufficiently motivated or had the technical understanding that you needed in those days to join mailing lists and usenet newsgroups than can nowadays access message boards on the world wide web, with browsers on every home computer. The point was well understood then that jokes and pointed remarks that would be harmless face-to-face can become poisonous when not accompanied by body language or when interpreted by someone from a different culture. Nowadays, with easy access comes carelessness, fortunately from a minority of members, but nevertheless enough of them to make some people (the sort who lack my thick skin and brash confidence that I can give as good as I get ) feel uncomfortable or even unwelcome. I would ask those members to read the guide-lines again, and consider their applicability to each of their posts before they click on the "Add Reply" button.

The AB has done a fantastic job.Let's not forget that.

I have been saying this for ages. We need some Mods on here 24/7 and it shouldn't necessarily be AB staff.Yes, it is fine when they are at work...and please remember the Mods hold down a full time at AB headquarters...but surely the AB can vet and approve suitable members here to hold down the Mod position or at least with slightly lesser powers?

Then things will not get to the position of how they are now...

Just wish to add my support to this thread.

My last posting of 2005 as the wine is kicking in.

Best wishes to all for 2006

Going to listen to some music now.

I think I am glad that, likewise, I have missed some of the unpleasant things which have seemingly gone on - not for the first time. I hope nobody leaves - it's really bad news if the behaviour of one member causes another to go. At the risk of being seen to be too much like "headteacher" I think I'd like to share a view someone who works in the IT industry gave me about e-mail. "It's a fantastic thing" he said "provided people don't abuse it. Always ask yourself if you'd say face to face to the person you're responding to, what you're about to write." Sometimes we would still do so, but I've found this maxim has stopped me in my tracks several times when responding - though I know I still make silly errors which I greatly regret afterwards.

I endorse the idea of 24/7 Moderators too - the ABRSM staff do a great job for us when they're around but they can't be 24/7. We need well-regarded people to keep an eye on things in their absence.

Happy New Year all and may everyone feel welcome and, valued and cared for on our forums next year. They've been such an encouragement and blessing to me, I'd hate to see them go.

Well said Jo in this thread.

Oboist.

Hi Semele, yes mods 24/7 would be a great idea, especially as the trolls, idiots and whatever tend to 'waken up' either at weekends or public holidays.

Yes Kenm, I'm beginning to think most people don't even look at the rules even in short form. I have been here quite a while now and as I can't remember what I did last week, have probably forgotten some of the rules which I read at the beginning. How often do new members use text talk in their first few posts, normally the day they join. Surely they can't have forgotten the rules that quickly if they bothered to read them.

Yes, I think 24/7 mods would be a good idea too. Sometimes on the forums, there are usually newbies who post 'useless' topics/posts, and when the AB mods aren't around, they cannot be deleted straight away. If there are some members of the forums who act as moderators with less powers, they could possibly close these topics so other members don't get involved and get tempted to add a reply, unless a member have said they've reported it.
Car Expert

Nice idea, but a member who may be considered by some to be a perfect candidate to be a Mod may be loathed by somebody else. At least with the ABRSM modding you have a sense of consistency..

Personally, I'd welcome the locking (and therefore rapid death) of CISD.. but that's just my opinion..

Yeah thats me

This came up recently. The mods were dead against 'forum reps' acting as mods.

I can see why.

Steve

No, I meant like when they advertise things, or break the forum rules.

Car Expert

how often do certain members continue to use text talk, despite requests from other forum users not to? i remember there was someone, can't think of a name, only that they were male, young (or at least i presumed) and i thought their contribution to the forum was pretty useful, apart from the consistent use of 'u' 'b' etc.


i think that's a bit unfair to the newbies - a lot of people (including myself) post pretty useless stuff, especially in the cafe because it's more like a conversation with the pace and topics, sometimes you forget how quickly it goes off topic.



that's a shame - i get the idea that a lot of stuff has gone off there recently, but i can't follow it very well any more. if we went back to the 'cafe' idea, that was great fun, but somehow i think we've maybe gone too far past that now

ahh ok but i'll say sorry anyway because i do feel i ask a lot of stupid questions

The Cafe in particular and specifically the CISD thread has generally kept idle chit-chat and drivel off the more serious threads which was a problem in the past. Now the waffle tends to end up in CISD. Maybe someone could PM me with details of the problems with CISD please, I must be missing something.

the problem is there seem to be quite a few people on here who have it out for each other, also the recent 'gangs' must have shown how easy it is for quite a large number of members to get caught up in this - if forum users were given special moderation status, it could quite easily get out of hand, and also lead to the new 'mods' being shunned/kept out by other forum users, as often seems to happen when people are given more authority over people they regard as friends.




ask stupid questions to your hearts content on here or anywhere!
remember doing one of my compositions (in 4/4 time) - i wasn't very good at counting at the time and asked my teacher if it was in 3/4 - the look on her face was fab! (i was supposed to be a gcse music student )

if anyone could do the same for me please, i know it's random and really hard to follow, but all i can figure out is that somethings happened and people have got upset - something to do with people being ignored on purpose or something like that i haven't seen anything, but then again i haven't really been on very much.

It's a situation, triggered by KJ's abdication which has clearly been bubbling under since all of a sudden we have these threads springing up, with much hand wringing but also some sensible commentary on the situation that the forum seems to have reached..

.. personally, I don't think it's as bad as some have made out. Then again, I am probably one of the "flies in the ointment" which have been getting up certain people's noses.. I think in other threads, e.g. "Decisions", this is alluded to in a not-so-subtle way.

Killing CISD might just be enough of a hint to the whole board to reset their behavioural parameters. I'm wondering if it's worth all this angst ever coming back! Now who's being dramatic? I fancy for some, that decision would be warmly welcomed... ho hum

I only ever went on CSID a couple of times - it went far too fast for me.

Must be getting old.

Hey ho.

Steve

In fairness i've never thought this forum has been that bad compared to some but i suppose i aint been here very long. Every forum is gonna have people who don't get on, its just like real life really. As it gets more members and gets more popular you loose the kinda old close knit community feel and its more diverse. Also if i ever feel that someone has ever been really rude to me then i'll just press the report button.

i'm not sure what to think of the forums - i was under the impression during the few times i've been back this term, that it didn't seem as much of a 'community' as before, people seemed out to get each other more often (i won't explain it all again - i've written my thoughts on katyjay's thread if you want to read them) but today it does seem more community like with people noticing what's happened. hopefully this is the beginning of the forums returning to what i fondly remember them as and then maybe katyjay, andante and any other members we may have lost or may yet lose will feel able to return.
and with that, i bid you all a happy 2006
i'm off now so take care of yourselves
hoxie
x

Yes, sensible commentary seems to be returning and there is a calmer atmosphere for now. That doesn't solve the problems though and it's hard to do that because nobody is saying exactly who has upset who and who should be apologising if they genuinely don't know what they have to apologise for. Given that I attract problems like a magnet, I'm probably there somewhere.

Don't even consider not coming back MrB. Apart from anything the forums have lost some good contributiors recently. There should be enough room here for everyone. Yes, we're all different, we all have different opinions, personalities and ideas, but given that there are over 5000 registered here, it's only natural that there will be problems/personality clashes.... Think of the people you work with, neighbours, relatives, friends of friends. Do you like them all? Do you agree with them all? Do you avoid them? Hmm, just thinking of a neighbour......

Happy 2006 everyone!

Wise and considered words noodle. Happy New Year to you !

Can't see that killing CISD would help. Another thread would come in its place.

Yes, but the fact it _was_ killed might send a message to all concerned, and let the mods set a precedent..

Maybe so, but surely it is the behaviour of some members that needs rectified, not chopping CISD. Trebor is right - CISD would just be replaced by something similar.

Yes, I agree - when I first joined (about two years ago) there were far fewer members, and although we might not always have got on with each other there was - generally speaking - more sense of caring and of us being a community. Let's hope that we can regain that feeling....

Well, it's the New Year now, so 'onward and upward'!

...ditto...and I know I am ...


...yes, please don't consider leaving mrbouffant - there are few enough organists around the forums as it is!!

Yes same, except that I'm 15. Heh, I should maybe put in more effort.

I've skim read CISD as well, and couldn't find anything drastically wrong with it. I really would like to know what people have been upset over.

I post in quite a lot of Internet forums, and I think this forum has one of the most friendliest and controlled atmospheres. There is only the occasional trolling and pointless posts, and although the arguments are unpleasant it's not as bad as some of the ones I've seen. And in other forums, moderators from members work (that's how most forums operate) and it works. I think a 24/7 mod would be a good idea. Perhaps we could have a poll?

I'm sorry the way things have turned out though. Locking CISD may form part of the solution, but as someone said, it may cause the chit-chat to turn elsewhere.

Happy New Year everyone!

I rarely post now for reasons partly touched on by this topic so I'm outside the box as they say, looking in. But, for what it's worth -

As Jo says, the cafe might be a problem, it is barely different from a chat-room. There's nothing wrong with that except things can get out of hand without a moderator on tap. Most chat rooms catering to the young are hosted. This one isn't. So there's a case for a host presence at all times it is open.

But I agree with mrbouffant - a moderator chosen from the culture itself might turn out to be a disaster, arguments already presented.

One is bound to ask why of nearly 6000 members only very few post regularly, perhaps 50.

What puts people off - or do they just raise a question and disappear when given an answer?

I am aware that certain adult posters tend to trample elephantine on the views of others or turn the spirit of a discussion into an argument about words or trivialise it. And there are trolls and flame-baiters. I'd guess that musicians like most artists are possibly more sensitive than most and while these heavy-handed and slapstick merchants insist on kicking others up the ###### {edit - hind-quarters}, people simply won't be encouraged to post.

Shame because this should be one of the top sites for practical musical information. Some contributors must give masses of time and energy and may feel they are giving to a lost cause. They'll find "better" things to do in the end. I hope for all it gets sorted out.

Watermelon Sugar.

Oh dear

I'm a relative newcomer to most of you who post regularly in CISD and the forums generally, but I read all this with dismay.
When I first joined the forum it was not long before someone (FB) began an horrendous assault on various members and was (i guess) subsequently banned.

I read about the forum in the ABRSM "Libretto" magazine, and as a result, joined, watched and read for a while until I felt I had something to contribute, and since then have looked forward nearly everyday to either reading, contributing a story, a bit of advise for what it may have been worth, and in turn gaining similar.
But above all, I do feel that I have made the aquaintance of many people on the forum, some of whom have been of more help and support than they probably realize without being able to meet them face to face. If I'm very honest, and if any other teachers from my area (Fylde Coast) are reading this, I am not apologizing - but they are the most uncommunicative unsharing lot I could wish NOT to meet......I could go further on that point, but not now.
Therefore, I feel as if I am part of a music community, teachers and students, much wider than this area provides. I have given serious thought in recent times to giving up teaching altogether (reasons withheld here) and since joining the forum I have begun to have second thoughts.....I am longer alone in my experiences, frustrations and such.
And like any community, people say things that others disagree with, take offence at etc., C'est la vie. Some laundry is best not washed in public and the fact that we are all looking at a computer screen instead of each other SHOULD lead us to be MORE self moderating.
I'm waffling, aren't I, but before I round up this post, if CISD was closed and certain forum members left, I should be one sad person......not that, as has been suggested, a similar thread wouldn't be started, so why consider closing CISD?

Dear Everyone

Can we stop the hairshirts and the fingerpointing now, please?

I'll explain my departure in a little more detail, but only to stop this continual hand-wringing.

I know I cited the CISD thread - that was the final straw for me. But the decision I made had been brewing some time.

That decision wasn't helped by being told on the voice forum (1) that the advice I was giving someone on a practical problem was wrong and (2) because I don't play the piano I'm not a proper musician.

That the former of these led to the voice forum being hijacked by the pro/anti Kodaly factions didn't help either.

As some of the people who have contributed to my making that decision have gone around saying "oh what a shame Katyjay's leaving", perhaps they should stop and have a think before they hound someone else out.

What's done's done. Move on from here.

Katyjay

And can I add that my departure had absolutely nothing to do with anything on the CISD thread, which I hadn't even read (since Christmas, anyway) when I made my decision to leave.

I will r-iterate what I said on the decisions thread, as some of you may not have seen it, that no-one has done anything to me personally, This is why I've only made fairly general comments, and absolutely no-one on these Forums has anything to apologise to me for. I have been disappointed about the attitude of some members to other members to the extent that I am taking a break from all but helping where I can on specific flute and/or teaching threads.

I hope this clears things up for some people. You haven't missed anything on the Forums to do with me, as there hasn't been anything. I wasn't even here between Christmas and last Friday when I decided to leave.

Note - the following has nothing to do with Katyjay or andante-in-c leaving, but is my feeling about the general malaise on the Forums lately.

I certainly don't think CISD should be closed - I think the cafe serves a very useful purpose in allowing people to be a bit boisterous and let their hair down - BUT this shouldn't be carried over into threads on the main part of the Forums, where we should show more respect for each other. This is similar to the contrast between how we would behave at home and in public - things we do which are quite normal in a family context might seem disrespectful at a concert, for example!

I feel that the original posters of any question on the main Forums deserve to have their query answered, or our views given, without having subsequent posters hijack the thread completely for their own private arguments. I'm not saying that it should become boring and humourless on the Forums, but the humour lately has often got out of hand in the postings and has sometimes become rather spiteful. On several occasions during the last couple of months I've thought - goodness, what would a person who has just joined make of all this!

I agree. I belong to other mailing lists and one message board (Orchestralist, Finale list, one of the Horn lists, Musisorbonne list, Reading Reform Foundation message board); by a large margin, none has as high a number of posts that generate ill-feeling.

If it is of interest to anyone why I don't post any more, it was those competitions in the cafe. The last thing I wanted was my posts competing for the most boring, most argumentative posts or even the most thrilling, not that I would win that one. As my posts can get argumentative and boring I do not want to be caused the additional embarrassment of being showcased! Also I didn't want my profile thrown in the bear pit so I scrapped mine.

I haven't been 'on' often enough to know what inspired this topic but I hope it's resolved with the arrival of 2006. Happy New Year everyone.

i sincerely hope you don't believe that - i know plenty of people who don't classify themselves as pianists who are fantastic musicians - the only reason keyboard/piano is promoted in our music department is so that you can 'see' the harmonies, chords etc, not because that's what makes you a musician. i hope whichever idiot told you that feels guilty.

It doesn't matter that much in the cafe if you go off-topic, but in music-related threads, it's not such a good idea to go off-topic because the person who started the topic might be trying to ask something useful that would help them. Usually when the threads get long (won't mention thread names), they sometimes go off-topic, arguments occur, and therefore the threads get closed.Yes, I agree.

Car Expert

i do too - except i don't think it would be one single thread, i think the whole of the cafe might get filled up with random threads on random topics that don't fit in elsewhere, and then all the other threads in the cafe would begin on other boards because people wouldn't want to trawl through the cafe. i know a lot seems to have gone on there, but for now i still think cisd is the best place for the rambling topics that don't fit in elsewhere - it keeps them off the rest of the board. if people can't follow it or are offended by it then maybe its just best to stay away - i'm not trying to be harsh or blame any of this on people getting upset, but it would be much easier if cisd was regarded by everyone as somewhere to post random comments and not take it too seriously.

I have mentioned it before, and think what would be very useful is an "Ignore Thread" facility. Essentially, on clicking the icon for this, this thread and all its associated activity becomes invisible to you (and you only). This allows others happily to continue as they wish. Note this nothing to do with the "Ignore User" facility.

As this board runs phpBB AFAICS, this topic has been discussed on the relevant forum here: http://www.phpbb.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=1006778 , however no clear outcome is apparent. I have used such a facility on other (non-phpBB) boards and it is quite useful.

Another facility would be "Ignore Sub-Forum": this would make selected sub-forums, e.g. Cafe, invisible to you (and you only).

Perhaps we can have this thread brought to the attention of the administrators.

P.S. I don't like forum members being mods, this is a very bad idea.

The problem with the Ignore user function at the moment is that you can still see that the certain user has posted, but not its content. That to me leads to curiosity. So, personally that function to me is useless.