Does anyone out there have Pirastro Eudoxa strings with ball-ends rather than loop ends? I want to try out different strings but I'm currently set-up with fine adjuserts on all strings as my pegs are not the easiests to adjust. I've found conflicting info on some websites and am wondering if it is indeed possible to get these strings with ball-end?

Any comments gratefully received.

Why not get rid of three of the fine adjusters? The makers of the more expensive strings probably don't expect the players of them to have 4 fine adjusters, as 4 fine adjusters ususally implies beginner status; ie more advanced players don't use them. To be honest I have no idea why, as life would be a lot easier with 4 fine adjusters, and I've thought of switching myself, but can't bring myself to because it would look amateurish or something. Adults who've been playing for many years just don't use them.

I bet there's millions of us out there looking longingly at fine adjusters - stupid, isn't it? But then you find out you can't even get the strings for them....

Violinia

I'd never use adjusters. Nevertheless, the combination of a violin that doesn't tune easily on the pegs, and Eudoxa strings, is not an attractive one. I had such an instrument at one time and used Eudoxa strings at my teacher's suggestion. Lovely strings. But it was SO embarassing always being the last one to get the instrument in tune!

Liz

Yes and quite honestly I gave up on Eudoxas a few years ago because they kept breaking very suddenly - most alarming. I switched to Thomastik Dominants and while a slightly less sensitive string than Eudoxas I've found them fantastically reliable and with a good sound. Also, you get a warning when they're going to break, because they start to unravel a little first (yes I know I need to change my strings more often!).

Violinia

Er, are we sure we're all talking about the same instrument? The poster is not explicit: might it not be a cello rather than violin (or even viola)? These are more commonly set up with 4 adjusters.

I have used Pirastro Oliv's, which are loop end, with 4 adjusters on an earlier cello of mine. I think I tied a knot in the end of the string to do this, IIRC, and it worked fine. I found those strings a bit tubby in sound though.

I tried Pirastro Eudoxa E string on my violin but it kept squeaking so I had to get rid of it. This was a ball-end string.

Would like to point out that violinists have lost competitions due to tuning problems which could have been resolved with fine tuners, however the violinists in question did not have them because it is not the fashionable thing.
I like my 4 fine tuners...and intend to keep them forever.

They are available, but you have to specifically ask for them. Gut core strings are not designed for use with fine tuners and as a result most stockists will automatically supply loop end.


The gut core makes the shelf life (off the instrument) only about a year and once on the instrument they last about six months. In short, they aren't the sort of strings you can buy up to keep and sadly many suppliers will have old stock that is well passed its use-by date, so when put on the instrument they can snap quite soon after. Radiator type heating in your house dries out the air too and the strings will shrink quite rapidly.
The only stockist in the UK who sells fresh gut core strings is J&A Beare in London and that's because they are the UK importer for Pirastro strings.

Eudoxas and Olivs are beautiful strings but, they really do need to be put on the right instrument. Without wanting to sound a snob, at £27 for one Oliv G string they are not for stringing lower priced instruments. Fine 18th or 19th century instruments often don't take well to the high tensions and gauges that very modern synthetic strings have and it is on these violins that the gut cores come into their own and really bring the instrument to life.


Bad intonation, or real tuning problems??? If you're good enough to be taking part in the competition then you should be able to deal temporarily with a string that has 're-adjusted itself'. Even good synthetic strings don't hold in tune reliably on a concert platform under strong and very hot lighting, but I've yet to see a top soloist (a violinist anyway) using four fine tuners; they seem to manage quite well without them.

One more word about fine adjusters on violins with dodgy pegs (and then I'll put my soapbox back under the table ); if you've got a violin that doesn't tune well on pegs, take it to a luthier and get the pegs adjusted - or renewed and fitted properly if they're that bad.

True, true, life without fine tuners would be very un-tuned indeed!

But life BEFORE fine tuners wasn't un-tuned anyway. Fine tuners were invented and designed solely for use with metal core strings because the tension on them is so high, turning the pegs to fine-tune an all-metal string is virtually impossible.

Clinical trimming of intonational slips and edited recordings is what makes listeners think every musician plays 100% in tune all the time. It ain't true in the real 'live' world.

Well great violinists manage to play pretty well in tune most of the time in concerts...and if they weren't tuned up well it would sound a whole lot worse!
When I said about the competition, I'm talking about international competitions, and not intonation problems but actual tuning. In fact, I'm sure a recent issue of "Strad" magazine talks about one such incident when the player in question was attempting to stretch the string during the odd bars rest to sharpen the string.

They'd probably put a new string on the instrument just hours before the competition. If a string breaks, then there is no option but to put a new one on, but the obvious thing to do would be to change the entire set two or three days before playing in a concerto competition.

Quite probably. Which is why keeping a full set of stretched strings in your case is always useful. It still doesn't change the fact that if he had used 4 fine tuners, the problem would not have existed.

Owning two violins is a real bonus. An ideal place to keep the strings stretched ready for use at a moments notice..

I'd be happy with just one right now

Bohemian - out of interest, have you got an amazingly good violin teacher? Or an average one but parents who encourage you a lot? Or you're just naturally very talented and motivated? Or a combination of all the above? I think you've done incredibly well to get such a high mark at Grade 8 - well done!!!

Also, do you play a lot in ensembles etc?

And two more questions - how old were you when you started violin, and have you always practised a lot?

You don't have to answer any of these - you can tell me off for being nosy instead.

Violinia

But shouldn't they be able to adjust finger placement to compensate, especially at this standard? This is why top level soloists do not have a problem, because this is what they do, not becasue they are well tuned (how many times do you see them retune after a movement?). Heifetz once said that he didn't play more in tune than others, he was just quicker at adjusting.

The only real problem would be if the violin was out maybe as much as a whole semitone or they had to play double stops with open strings.

I'm afraid I'm in the "one fine tuner" camp here. I wouldn't want the extra weight of 4 tuners on my best fiddle. (My reserve fiddle does have 4 fine tuners though, but that just happens to be how it came!)

My violin teacher isn't well-known...I've been with him for 8 years and I think he's great, but he's not someone who, when asked your teacher, people say "Oh I know". In fact at a certain music school, the director of music said "Well I don't know him, but you might still be alright I suppose"... My parents don't care that much, they don't want me to go into music, but they are music teachers. They think I am wasting my time. I'm not naturally talented! I'm only motivated because I discovered a love of music very young, but unfortunately didn't focus my attention on anything in particular until last year (I have played a most interesting range of instruments, including double bass (I'm not 5 foot tall yet)).


Yup, lots. School orchestra, school chamber orchestra (I'm playing the solo this year - scary), county orchestra, string quartets, rock bands with violin sections...


I was 5 and a half, had already played piano for over a year. Pratice habits...well I did an average amount until I was about 12, then I had 2 years of being really lazy and did very little, and went weeks without playing. Sometime last year I decided to start practicing properly...and did 2 hours a day, which recently increased to 3. So, to put it simply, no, I was rubbish at practicing until recently!

(By the way, I know it looks like I'm an OK violinist, but I still sound like a beginner to myself, and don't think I am good enough for my age...I tihnk my result was mainly luck.)



I bet Heifetz was in tune though. Yes, it's like trying to play double stopped scales before realising that one string is slightly out-of-tune - that is, entirely possible if you have exceptional ears and are a very quick thinker, but much harder than it needs to be. Like you say double stops with open strings would sound awful, and they are anything but uncommon. I would rather risk looking amateurish and sound less so.
Anyway, we can't all be top level soloists, and for us mortals who occasionally are forced to play the odd orchestral solo, 4 fine tuners is much more sensible than relying on amazing aural skills.


Umm...how much do they actually weigh? Surely it's a couple of grams.

I'm going bow shopping today!!! :D:D

Huh? What did you do your grade 8 on??!

A violin which is much too big for me, and I can't actually reach some stuff on it (like 3 of the pieces I am currently playing). I have to get a new one but can't because they cost too much.

You must be very small then?

Liz

Yeah, I'm under 5 foot and my hands are unusually small for my height.

bohemian,
you're not alone in the "small person" camp. I'm only 5" 1" and also have unusually small hands for my height. My little finger is on the short side too which can be a problem when trying to stretch a 10th
I've been in places and talking to people when they've noticed just HOW tiny my hands are. Even worse, they've dragged me around to show others how tiny my hands are - like I was some sort of freak show exhibit

I've always managed to compensate by the wide stetch I've got between the knuckle joints, but I admit that I own two fairly small-bodied violins. One 18th century and the other an early 19th century English violin which has quite a noticebly shorter string length. I just can't cope with a lot of the later 19th century sized instruments or indeed some of the really modern violins that can be deep ribbed and impossible for me to reach over onto the G string or the high positions. The cello I play is a full-size baroque instrument, but in todays modern terms it's a 3/4 sized.

Isn't it odd how we assume things about people - I was quite convinced you were a chap but at under 5 foot that has to be highly unlikely. I guess I assumed you were a chap because of the drums and the jazz piano. Nice to see sexism is alive and well in me

So if you're likely to remain at your present height your only remaining option seems to be a "ladies violin" AKA 7/8 - unless you go down the route of that tiny soloist who plays a 3/4 - what's her name?

Amanda - you can do a tenth??? Perhaps it's the result of being a viola player but I just can't imagine ever being able to do a tenth even on a 15 inch viola - I remember some dire passaage in something we performed last year where half the violas - unfortunately my half - had to do some rapid string crossing that went on for half a page or so and involved a huge stretch - something like D - C - B flat with each one being a seventh above the one below. After this most of us found that our hands had sort of locked in position and it was most uncomfortable. How on earth do you do a tenth without causing yourself an injury?? I'm five nine with large hands for a woman and I can only just about reach a minor tenth on the violin and I wouldn't want to do a lot of those in a row!

Liz

Whoops! I am indeed a girl

That's exactly what I'm looking for Unfortunately they are extremely hard to find, and I should be looking at spending around £5000 apparently, but to get the same quality in a 7/8ths, I need to spend about half again because they are so desirable. Annoying or what?

Anyone who can reach a 10th...I can very very jealous. I pride myself on my octaves and being able to play scales in 3rd and 6ths using 2 fingers for every double stop, but 10ths...scary!!
Amanda, it might just be me but I find it easy to play high on the G string, because I can get my hand round nice and easily. I don't find this on the E string though...I sort of have to let go of the neck and put my thumb on the body of the violin to keep hold of it, which usually results in a rather unsavory sound!

I found 2 lovely bows today which I have to narrow down to one - by a Swiss maker and a German maker. Apparently the Swiss one is extremely unusual. I love spending parents' money.

With difficulty. It's a sort of a 9th and bit + some very quick movement which to the listener will really sound like a 10th. My little finger really hurts after repeated playings though. Normally I avoid works with this sort of interval.

I know what you mean about the locked hands. I sometimes get that after having to stretch hard in higher positions on the G string. I find my fingers won't work very fast for a while after. It's really disconcerting. As I said in my previous post, I think the fact that being able to make quite wide gaps between my knuckles helps the hand open out a lot more than you might expect.

Good grief I don't know her, that's worth looking into. I gather she might be Korean, Japanese or from somewhere out that way - a lot of their players, including cellists, are quite tiny. There was a time when I seriously thought of going back to a 3/4 sized instrument myself (I didn't move to a full-size until I was 14!!!!!) because I never thought I'd find a decent full-size violin that was still small enough for my teeny weeny hands. However, when works appear that are mandatory for higher positions on the G string, I often wish I did have a really good 3/4 sized violin to use.

Ahhh, yes, I have the same trouble there as well and it took a lot of trial and error to find a suitable anchorage position with my hand that allowed a decent tone. I tend to make use of only my 1st, 2nd and 3rd fingers in really high positions, so that I can just about keep my thumb on the base of the violin neck.

Whilst my didgy-sized hands never hampered my progress in the long-term, finding instruments has been a problem. bohemian, depending on how much you're looking to spend and where you are in the country (or willing to travel), Stringers of Edinburgh have a 7/8 sized violin made by the respected English maker William Luff. I think it's priced at about £7000. I'm not sure of their website address, but a Google search will find them.

It's difficult to imagine how small instruments can be so desirable when you consider 95% of players will have hands large enough to cope with any full-sized violin. There can't be that many players out there with really tiny hands, can there?? And I've always been told that selling smaller instruments can take years, if not decades, because so few people want them. My cello for instance had been with the dealer 15 years before I went in and tried it. Since buying it, all I keep getting from colleagues is, "you'll never be able to sell it in the future you know, it's too small".

Midori ?? She has a 3/4 sized Gagliano on loan from the Stradivari Society.

ED: not so sure now. I get the impression she loaned the Gagliano to the society, rather than the other way round.

Liz, can you throw any light on this. I'd be interested to know who this 3/4 sized violin soloist is.

Ah, perhaps it's apocryphal.

Liz



What a nightmarish thought, speaking from the other side of the equation - an instrument still unsold after 15 years! We've had one or two with us for 18 months or so but by that time we're usually desperately trying to sell them off at cost!

Liz

Can you produce a good vibrato high up? I am having serious difficulty in longer high passages, I use a wrist vibrato and because my wrist is sort of locked I can't make it work properly. Any tips? I only use my 1st-3rd fingers up high too, I get a lot of questions about it from my teacher/peers though.


Excellent! I tried a couple of 4/4 by William Luff and liked them a lot. That sounds really good. I'll certainly check it out Unfortunately I'm just north of London so it might be an expensive trip.

I think the problem with 7/8 instruments is that there are very very few of them made, and all the ones I've tried have been new instruments. Apparently small, good quality instruments are hard to shift because even small violinists are picky about their sound, if there are 50 full sized violins to try you will probably find one, but if the same shop has only 5 smaller violins your chance of finding a good one is significantly smaller.

It's really nice to know that there are professionals with small hands

It arrived with them in a rather sorry state. Attributed to Joseph Klotz and well over 200 years old, regrettably looked it looked that age - they showed me the photos they'd taken. The warped front and back had to be restored to their proper shape using the plaster cast and warm bags of sand sand method, which is extremely costly and takes a long time to do. The ribs had to be patched in places and a new neck was grafted onto the original scroll. Eventually it was finished and put up for sale - and there it sat, for about 15 years. In that time the repairer left to go and work in Germany, but always made a point of asking to see it when he returned to visit London. It was sort of "his baby".

It went out on approval numerous times but always came back because while the parents wanted a nice cello, parting with a five figure sum for an instrument a child would grow out of in a year or so wasn't acceptable. The dealer has no doubt lost money on it over the years, but I think they wanted it to sell to a small adult. I know that they were really pleased to see it finally finding a home where it wasn't going to be dragged (literally) around a school three days a week!

Yes, it's breaking the bank paying for it each month , but when you put the cello and me together we look made for each other - every other instrument I'd tried was enormous against my little body and hands.

Ahhhhh, it sounds like a match made in heaven

Liz

Thanks to everyone for your comments. I've decided to give the Eudoxas a go, I will however definitely have to get my violin pegs sorted out as my G doesn't take kindly to being moved! I do think that it's crazy in the 21st century that you can't get all strings with both loop and ball-ends. Surely a gut-core string could just be fixed at the fine-adjuster and tuned using the peg if necessary, this would make it easier to quickly re-string? Anyway thanks for the tips, I haven't actually been able to find these with ball-ends yet but it's good to know that they are availble. Also very useful to know where to soure fresg gut-core strings...