I am sure this varies throughout the country, but in the orchestras near to where I live, particularly the youth orchestras at all levels, there seems to be a significant shortage of viola players.

Speaking purely from where I am, I suspect some of the things that prevent violin learners ever having a go at the viola (in no particular order) are:


( i ) not really knowing much about what a viola is or whether they like the sound of it.
( ii ) not having access to a viola which is the right size
( iii ) not wanting to learn alto clef
( iv ) not having viola lessons

Apparently the county youth orchestra has been offering free viola lessons (and presumably a hire instrument) as an incentive to anyone they can pursuade to take up viola. Nobody has "bitten" so far.

I was wondering if some violinists might be more open to exploring the idea of playing the viola if they had access to orchestral viola parts which had been transposed up a perfect fifth into treble clef, so that on a temporary basis they could use the viola as a transposing instrument (using violin fingering) without having to learn a new clef.

Previously on this forum I have quoted famous violists who have (rightly) complained at those who see the viola as no more than a "big violin", and pointed out the fundamental differences in respect of bowing and fingering. I assume those great people know what they are talking about, and accept everything they say. I am just wondering whether as a very temporary step, the availability of transposed music might act as a catalyst to encourage violinists to at least give the viola a try, by reducing the "activation energy" required to do so.

As software improves, and whole pieces of music can be transposed at a touch of a button, it occurred to me that a lot of short school orchestra type pieces could be scanned and transposed pretty easily - the bigger scores would be more of a pain for individuals, although I suppose publishers could transpose the music if they felt inclined to do so.

Learning alto clef, in the grand scheme of things, might be seen as no big deal, but I do think it may be viewed as enough of a pain in the neck to put some people off from even picking a viola up which is a shame. Armed with a viola and a sheet of transposed music, on the other hand, a violinist could turn up at a rehearsal and do little more than move his or her chair and pick up a viola, and just have a go at the viola part. If they found they liked it, that discovery would probably be worth any small extra effort involved in subsequently learning alto clef.

any views?

Why don't we just invent a new clef. It works a 5th lower than the treble clef. And then INSIST that all viola music is written in it. I'm sure we could persuade the Finns to write patch for Sibelius to do this.

I must admit that the thought of alto clef does put me off. But my friend just tells me to buckle down and I can learn it in a weekend. Hmmmm.....so many things to do

Well... just to share my own experience. I started viola about 18 months ago after playing the violin for several years and reaching grade 3 standard and the intermediate orchestra of my music centre. I've never been the most coordinated of people and have very stiff shoulders and as such, I was having difficulty with violin parts. My teacher suggested that I try playing viola as the parts would play more to my strengths, which are fairly accurate intonation, a nice tone and the ability to play loudly and heavily when necessary. I already had a basic familiarity with alto clef due to theory lessons and in the first lesson I was given several beginner viola tutor books and began to play the well-known tunes from those. 4 or 5 days later, I went to the junior orchestra rehearsal at music centre (instead of the intermediate orchestra) on viola and coped quite well. During the Easter holidays I practised a lot and became familiar with the alto clef and returned to the intermediate orchestra after the holidays, where I could play music of a similar standard as before. I also began playing grade 3 viola music in my lesson at this point.

Viola is my main instrument now and I very rarely play the violin. I've never had any problems with alto clef and the viola but I did, however, read bass clef as alto clef occasionally when playing the piano - it wasn't a huge problem and I've "grown out of it".

With regards to your suggestion, Zoda, I think that it could possibly be a good idea on a temporary basis but the players would need to learn alto clef pretty quickly - my teacher said that most teenagers who switch from violin to viola can learn alto clef in about a fortnight. I would also be concerned that conductors might decide to get rid of violas if violins can do the job.

Hope this helps (and makes sense! )

Thanks for your replies, Rainbow and Jane XXX

Rainbow, I think we're actually in agreement - I agree it would make sense to learn alto clef as soon as you decide to play viola. The transposed music idea was just to plug the gap for people who had not yet made any decision to play viola, but were prepared to give it a go as long as they didn't have to learn a new clef to do so.

There would be no question of the viola being "done away with", the whole idea would be to enable people to play real viola music down to an octave below bottom C on real violas, without first having to learn alto clef. So for instance if the true orchestral note required from the viola is bottom C, in the transposed music it would be written as a low G on the treble clef, and the violinist would simply treat the viola (for note reading purposes only!) as if it was his or her violin ie you read a G, you play the lowest open string as you would on the violin, but since you are holding a viola, out comes the C below middle C as required by the orchestral score.

Oh right, I see, it's a good idea to get people started but I think that it could be a bit confusing.

The reason I don't play viola is because of the viola jokes

Also I can't reach anything on it. My fingers don't even cope with a 4/4 violin.

I have incredibly tiny hands, but I can manage a 15" viola. It's really only when playing in the higher positions over on the C andG strings that I start to struggle.

I've got small hands and a fairly large viola.... I cope. Bohemian, if you want to play viola then there's a viola out there for you somewhere!

Yes, a half size I actually played viola for 1 piece in our string quartet on lets-play-each-others-instruments day. I don't think it's my thing...
When I say small hands, this is small as in having to come up with alternative fingerings for pieces, scales, and actually not being physically able to play some things (1st solo in Vivaldi's Spring, not ideal since I'm meant to be performing it soon).

Oh right, if it's not your thing then don't play it! It must be really inconvenient to have to come up with alternative fingerings!

I studied violin until the age of 14, when, due to the only viola playing in the school being about to leave (she was 18) I was persuaded to change to the viola.

I was given 3 lessons and stuck in the school orchestra as a viola player.

I panicked! I couldn't read the music (it was taking me so long to get used to the change from treble to alto clef) and just sat there making an awful noise for a few weeks until I decided to give up.

I didn't touch another violin for 12 years or more!

My violin teacher is actually a viola player but can play and teach both instruments comfortably, and I have been told that most of the "best" violinists can play viola and vice versa. Also, viola is a less popular instrument which means that there is less competition when auditioning for Conservatoire programs etc (an example of popular versus less-popular instruments, and competitition for places - the RWCMD auditioned about 120 sopranos for about 20 course places this year, while my brother was one of only *7* double bassists auditioning for *5* places, and they all got in anyway. Had he been one of 120, his chances would probably have been much less!)

So there are arguments for changing to the viola, or at least studying it alongside violin, but to abruptly change a young player can just be very confusing unless they are a very confident musician!

Nah, it's a little cello!!!!!!!!

Lol, nice way of thinking about it

I think it's an 'age' thing - it's much easier to learn a new clef, language, currency etc when you're young. As you get older your neural pathways get more fixed and it gets very hard to change. I still think in Fahrenheit instead of Centigrade, and will do a little conversion in my head each time (divide by 5, multiply by 9 and add 32). It took me years to think in the decimalised currency! As for kilos, forget it - and fortunatelya lot of the supermarkets have seen sense and gone back to labelling things in pounds and ounces as well as kilos.

So for older violinists who haven't used viola notation, a more familiar clef would be a complete boon and get a lot more of us playing the viola than currently do, if we don't already. For younger aspiring violists, I'd say just get to grips with the alto clef - your brain is still fit and supple and will probablyfigure it out in a week or two!

I've recently acquired a viola and haven't done much with it yet but do love the sound of it. But to add my view to the fray - I really don't think it's substantially different to a violin - after all, playing low down on the G string of a violin is pretty different to playing high up on the E string - a viola is just like a further extended range to a violin. To talk of it as a completely different instrument is a step too far really. When I got this viola I had a few goes on it, improvising jazz on it to one of my jazz backing tracks. My fingers quickly dealt with the bigger gaps between notes in exactly the same way your fingers adapt to the smaller spaces as you go up fingerboard of the violin, and you adjust your arm weight to deal with the different timbre - it's an instinctive thing I think really.

Violinia

From what I've heard it's trickier going back to the violin after playing the viola for a while.

Mmm, yeah, that's (one reason) why I wanto to learn viola and cello!!!! Same strings. Just gotta make life easier somewhere along the line....

thanks for your further thoughts everybody

Violinia - I'm coming round to your way of thinking. There are fingering and bowing differences of importance for the viola, but to overemphasise those differences and ignore the obvious similarities may actually contribute to the shortage of people prepared to try it.

i'm the same! i took up the viola at 14, playing a violin strung with viola strings... it wasn't until i'd been playing for a while that my parents decided to get me a proper instrument - mine's 15", and i can just about get by on it!

My youngest, now 14, started on the violin at 6. When she reached Violin G5 at about 12, there was the 'treading water' whilst she took the G5 theory. Her tutor suggested she try out the viola and we hired a 14". Within a term she was noticed by the director of the Senior School Orchestra and sitting amongst the 6th formers, there was only one other viola. Two years later she still hasnt taken an Exam, but her tutor puts her at G7, she is now on a 15" and never went back to the violin - which lies unused & dusty in the corner! As to the alto clef, she got it in a week! When she attended a National Youth Orchestra open day last year there were about 150 violins and 6 violas! The violas had loads more attention and extra teaching. She just loves the viola.

That's very interesting Ayshah - I had wondered whether when you got to a certain level, you started to find a higher proportion of viola players knocking about - I remember there being a pretty big viola section in my university orchestra, for instance ....... but 150:6 is a pretty shocking ratio. Is your daughter going to audition for the NYO?

I doubt it. Her main instrument is piano. She went because it was ½ hour bus ride down the road and it was free! No seriously. She went to have the experience of being with other viola players and to be stretched, which is her biggest grumble. She really enjoyed it.

sounds like fun, Ayshah!

love your signature

I haven't found the time to read this thread properly all the way through (sorry - I'll sit back and have a proper read soon) but my initial thought is that learning to play viola as a transposing instrument and then having to learn the alto clef, and then trying (once the student is more advanced to also be able to read treble clef at pitch on the viola... well it could get a bit confusing. But I could see the argument for writing the viola music at pitch on the treble clef, maybe for specially adapted pieces of music (ie didn't go down so low that the leger lines were insane below the stave - there are plenty of "3rd violin" parts for junior orchestras who have few violas, playing them on viola would be a good start) which would then be of benefit later when having to play viola from treble as well as alto clef.

Anyway I'll have a proper read, but that's my initial twopennorth.

I took up the viola at the age of 16, having taken Grade 7 on violin, and was put straight into various orchestras, so I needed a way of learning the alto clef quickly. I was told to play in 1st position but to read the notes and finger as if I was playing violin in 3rd position. It works! This got me started, then after a while I got used to associating the notes on the page with the position on the instrument.

Although I haven't played the viola for about 20 years now, I can still read alto clef quite fluently (e.g. when teaching Grade 5 theory), but I still do this by imaginging my fingers on the instrument!

I started like that too, though when I try to explain it to people I usually get blank looks!

thanks for your further thoughts, guys!

On reflection I think my initial proposal probably involves a disproportionate amount of effort for a relatively small initial advantage, which also then makes things more difficult later on. I think what probably stops people trying viola most of all is they don't have a viola to try, and then that nobody even suggests they could try it. Given a suitably sized viola and a willingness to give it a go, I don't think alto clef would be all that much of a barrier to anyone - it wasn't to me.