I suppose it's like that, do you agree?

Comparison between different music conservatories/academies in difficulties in ascending order:

Grade 8(TCL) < Grade 9(RCM) < Grade 8(ABRSM) ~ ATCL(Performance) ~ Grade 10(RCM) < LTCL(Recital) < ARCT ~ DipABRSM < LRSM ~ FTCL(Performance) < FRSM


Also, what about RSM (teaching) and RSM (performance)? Which one is more difficult? WHat are their difference?

Thanks

love to know where AVCM comes in this, just so i feel really inferior it's probably around grade 6(ABRSM) standard or something like that so i'm off the scale (in the lower direction, sadly )

I don't know what RCM is, it's a board we don't have in the UK. However grade 8 ABRSM is WAY below ATCL, and dipABRSM is way below LCTL (or it certainly should be!)

liz

FTCL == FLCM == FRSM in my opinion, the repertoire is harder than FRSM, but obviously no written work/viva etc. Plus you only get "approved", "not approved", no shades of grey and a 40% pass mark here...

Interestingly, the OU rate the FTCL as being worth 60 credits at level 3 (final-year Bacherlor's degree work), and the FRSM as being 60 credits at postgraduate level. Some of this, I suspect, is to do with the written component and 30 minute grilling one gets in the FRSM.

Good points YAP, I can only talk from my interpretation based on the syllabus, knowing some of the repertoire and my fear of the written submission!!

To a certain extent an exam is as hard as one makes it. One could go into a diploma exam with the attitude of getting it the easiest way possible and could probably pick a complete programme of pieces that had been on various grade 8 syllabuses. Similarly one could go into an exam and play the pieces one likes, these happening by chance to be all amongst the hardest, and do a lot more work for the same thing. I think it's obvious from which approach one would benefit the most (even if the pieces one liked weren't the hardest), but unfortunately the emphais seems to be shifting, for some people at least, to a point where getting the letters is the important outcome of any exam; not what one learns on the way (just count the number of people in a university lecture theatre when the lecturer has said 'this won't be on the exam'!).

I think deciding the relative difficulty of exams based solely on the repertoire set is a little dangerous (especially when with diplomas where the repertoire lists are so vast). People often say diploma X is harder than diploma Y because the repertoire is harder, but it depends whether one picks from the easy or hard end of the list here's a programme which 'proves' that ATCL is harder than dipABRSM (or some would say as hard as LRSM, all pieces being on the ATCL and LRSM syllabuses for piano):

Bach - Prelude and Fugue in C#, BWV 848
Mozart - Sonata in C minor, K457
Chopin - Etude in F Op. 10 No. 8
Faure - Nocturne No. 4 in Eb
Ginastera - Danza del gaucho matrero (no. III from Danzas Argentinas)

And here's one that 'proves' dipABRSM is harder than ATCL (or some would say is as hard as LTCL, all pieces being on the dipABRSM and LTCL syllabuses for piano):

Ravel - Sonatine
Mozart - Piano Sonata in D, K284
Szymanowski - Etude 3 Op. 4

With the same logic I could probably 'prove' that neither diploma is harder than grade 8 and, in instruments like french horn, which have less repertoire dipABRSM = LRSM = FRSM (I did actually speak to someone here (hgirl) whose dipABRSM programme, with which she passed incidentally, could have also been used at LRSM and FRSM). What really makes the diplomas hard is the standard of playing required, 50% of the people who enter the AB's diplomas, who presumably can play the pieces in their mind or they wouldn't enter, do not pass. What makes it difficult is not so much what one has to play; but how one has to play it. Yes, to a certain extent the repertoire difficulty does make a difference (I'm not going to sit here claiming that Chopin Etudes are easy!) but it's not quite as significant when the playing standard is considered. I'd guess it's easier to play an LRSM programme to dipABRSM standard than a dipABRSM programme to LRSM standard (or maybe more clearly a dipABRSM programme to grade 8 standard than a grade 8 programme to dipABRSM standard).

P.S. MrB this isn't a complaint at you, I know you have experience of the standard of a lot of these things (I wouldn't argue with you on the matter ), it's just a general observation that many people use piece standard as an exam difficulty metric.

I wouldn't take offence at such a thorough and well-thought out posting as yours. I can only speak from my personal opinion and how I personally rank the fellowship diplomas I am nearly on the cusp of considering..

Besides, being an organist, I consider FRCO to be the top of the tree, if only for the horrendous technical tests in the practical exam and the torture that is two, three hour written papers concocted by Satan.. lol (incidentally, the repertoire piece is relatively straightforward....)

(guess this is a slightly less thorough and well-thought out post ).

All good points AP. I've chosen to quote the above passage because it's certainly true of the clarinet diploma repertoire lists. The example which springs to my mind is the first of the Brahms sonatas. The third movement is on the current Grade 5 syllabus, the fourth movement is on the Grade 7 syllabus, a combination of movements is on DipABRSM, and the whole sonata is on both LRSM and FRSM syllabi. It goes without saying that the performance standard required for Grade 5 is way below what would be expected for FRSM.

Whilst one can choose seeming "soft options" for DipABRSM, surely it's the standard of performance that counts, not how difficult the programme is.

Deborah (whose "soft option" programme excludes the Bernstein Sonata and the Honegger Sonatine because she can't do glissandi!)

Taking about diplomas and difficulty, the pieces in the repertoire list give a rough indication of the technical skill required but the standard of performance expected varies with the level of diploma. If a piece which is not extremely difficult technically is offered at both DipABRSM and FRSM levels, then it is natural that the interpretation and stylistic awareness, presentation and communication get a heavier weighting in higher level diplomas. If one were to play Mozart's Clarinet Concerto for DipABRSM and FRSM in exactly the same way, I'd be surprised if the marks awarded were the same! There would also be less tolerance for wrong notes at FRSM level.

> There would also be less tolerance for wrong notes at FRSM level.

Wrong notes at any diploma level are unfortunate!!

Well, some grade 10 RCM pieces are DipABRSM level, like Pathetique first movement, or Copland's Cat and Mouse, while others are probably in around the grade eight ABRSM level. Hope that helps a bit. Btw, in my opinion, it sounds like ABRSM is more thorough than RCM as far as the sightreading, and aural bits go.

> Btw, in my opinion, it sounds like ABRSM is more thorough than RCM as far as the sightreading, and aural bits go.
--------

But the RCM practical exams have many more theory co-requisites. One could argue that the RCM exams are more thorough because candidates are required to complete a bunch of exams in harmony, counterpoint, analysis, and history.

isn't the whole of the pathetique on the diploma syllabus? i'm doing the 1st mov. of beethoven sonata in c minor (op 10 no. something ) for AVCM, but the whole sonata is on the DipABRSM list - i wouldn't consider the exams equal because there is one movement the same - my exam is easier because it only requires one movement if that makes sense or am i just reading your post wrong?

Sorry, good point there. For grade 10 RCM you must choose either the first movement plus the second, or the second plus the third. And yes, I'm not familiar with the theory co-requisites for other examination systems, but RCM theory IS a major kill. For example, to qualify to take a ARCT (diploma level) exam in RCM you must have done at least Rudiments level 2, history 3, history 4, harmony 4 (or 5), and counterpoint 4. Then you are allowed to do your practical. BUT before they will give you you're certificate, you must within 5 years also do harmony 5 (if you haven't done it yet), analysis 5, and harmony/counterpoint 5. All of these exams except Rudiments 2 are 3 hours exams, and 70 dollars and up each.

(Optional exams, which are key building steps are of course : preliminary rudiments, rudiments, 1, harmony 3, and harmony 4.) And if you want your teacher's diploma, the theory continues..........ahhhhhhhhhhh! Thankfully, I'm right at the cutoff point where I can do my teacher's with still only ! three hour written exam, instead of the new 3 exams starting 2009.

But we don't have to do any quickstudies (which sound like murder to me)! (except I think you might for teacher's ARCT), just straight up sightreading and sight clapping. We don't have to sing anything back, well, unless we want to. They allow us to play it back. And our pieces stop at the performer's ARCT level, all grouped into just one diploma. (The only other 2 offered that I know of are teacher's and composer's.) These pieces can range from Mozart's K311 to Beethoven's Hammerklevier, and Lizst's Mephisto Waltz. Personally I'm going for Beethoven's Moonlight as my big one. For our exam (performer's) you need 5 pieces, one from each era, and an etude. Wow, this was a really long post! Oh, yeah, the other difference I found was we play all out technique hands together after grade 8 I think, so no examiner calling for just one hand or the other. And we don't have scales in 3rds and 6hts until grade 10 and higher.

wow the theory on that sounds hard!
haha for AVCM you only have to do grade 5 theory with VCM the scales list seems pretty enormous, don't know if that's just because i don't like scales though
think i've got the nicer deal though you'll get a better diploma

YAP Pm'd me about the AVCM last night.They have changed the syllabus somewhat over the years and there are different variations of each diploma as you know. You also have to play one piece by memory now.Scales are pretty standard.

I would sit their G6 as this exempts you for the LVCM.

Please can you PM me? I will be on here again tonight...

Thanks.