I started teaching a grade 4 student in October. He isn't a private student so I didn't have a choice in teaching him. He had been entered for Grade 4 (Piano) London College by his previous teacher about a week before he started lessons with me. I was horrified when I heard this but prepared him as best I could. When he did his exam 5 weeks later, he couldn't play one line of the first piece, his fingering was atrocious - in both pieces and scales, he had been taught wrong rhythm and was finding it hard to correct it, fingering and some wrong notes which his previous teacher hadn't noticed. I was hoping he would pass, and as far as I was concerned it was touch and go, so imagine my horror and amazement when he got merit. I don't enter students for London College exams because I really don't value them. I have taught this teacher's students when she has been off ill and I am amazed at how well they do in London College exams - they never do well in Trinity or ABRSM, but she enters them for this because it makes her/her students look better.

As far as he is concerned he has passed grade 4 with merit and is pleased with himself and probably thinking about grade 5. This is the only merit he has ever had in a piano exam. Obviously we will be working on techinique and he will learn to use his fingers correctly and play the piano without banging it so much it wobbles. His sight reading is poor but London College grade 4 is about ABRSM grade 2.

So what do I do now? Do I let him continue with London College, even though I don't like it or do I change him to ABRSM/Trinity in which case instead of him proceeding to grade 5 he will automatically drop to grade 3ish. Obviously whatever I decide, he won't be going straight on anyway. We are working on technique, repertoire etc first.
Maybe I should make my life easier and change all my students to London College Exams - they would get the same good results but neither them nor I would have to work as hard to get them.

What would you do? Any suggestions appreciated!!

Hi Noodle and good evening.

Transfer him over to AB.

I tend to stick with AB for the graded exams. Try to persuade him to "develop" his repertoire and technique,rather than focusing too much on exams. Present him with examples of AB G5 standard invoking (...I like that word ) the extra GCSE element into it and compare like for like with the LCM.

The LCM is like the VCM...I will be banned if I finish this sentence off

Edit: Just sent you two for the price of one profane words.Hope you like??? But rather apt,me thinks.

Oh Heavens,Noodle...I will PM you again with the uncensored versions.It doesn't invoke the word spoons either.

Thanks Semele. I think that I will probably change him over to ABRSM, but he won't be ready for Grade 5 for about 3 years, by then he could be on Grade 8 London College.

Given that the standard for London College exams is so much below Trinity and ABRSM, how can grades 6 -8 be awarded the same UCAS points?

Thanks, message received!!

Noodle.

The Verdict is We are unanimous in my decision.

Great minds think alike....

If you push him hard,the ALCM in two years?

Sorry, folks, but this cannot be correct. If the qualifications awarded have the same points as far as the QCA are concerned then you can be sure they have been awarded the same points for very good reason. QCA don't give points away for nothing - note that VCM and the like are not even listed.

As it happens I've failed grade 7 piano with three different boards - ABRSM (three times I think), Trinity (twice I think) and LCM (once). The LCM music was indeed easier but in terms of comments for marks, the LCM marking was MUCH tougher and even though I was much better prepared for that exam (I could actually play all three pieces as well as the scales for my LCM exam, whereas with Trinity once I had done so little practice on one of the pieces that it was just like looking at a lot of squashed tadpoles in the exam - I might as well have been sightreading - and my best piece was only just a bare pass mark) the marks I got in the end were very similar with all three boards on each occasion (and yes I know i need my head examining - hence the signature!).

I have an LGSM in my principal study instrument, a Performer's certificate in another, and grade 8s in two others, all passed long before my LCM grade 7 attempt, so although i readily confess to not being much of a pianist, I did have the ability to be able to work out whether I can play a piece or not, and i could actually play all three of them. Not flawlessly by any means, but at a consistent speed without too many slips and with dynamics and articulation. Nevertheless, for one of my pieces I got less than half marks and for another I got exactly half marks.

Of course the LCM examiner I had could have been a rogue examiner, but then, so could yours, Noodle.

O yes, and I've also failed ALCM on viola - having played, according to both my accompanist and my teacher as well as how I felt myself, a lot better than I played for the LTCL which i also failed, and again the marks i got were very similar. Yes the LTCL was a teacher's diploma and the ALCM was performance, but cancelling that difference out is the fact that the LTCL is of a higher standard than ALCM. I confess the theory for the ALCM was relatively easy, but that's all.

Liz

Yes, I could accept that it may have been a rogue examiner - if it was only one examiner/one student. My observations on London College are based on examiners/candidates over the years. I work in a centre used for London College exams and I hear candidates do exams 3 times a year. I know the rep and hear the results which are unbelievable. I know of one child who got distinction in grade 4 and can't play 'Jesus loves me'. I have never entered students for London College and I'm sure I never will. The student I referred to above couldn't play any scales with the correct fingering and yet got 15/15 for his scales in grade 4 exam. I have seen this happen with other candidates too.
I imagine the QCA points have been awarded because LCM is part of a university but there is no way Grade 8 LCM is the same standard as ABRSM/Trinity.

I just feel that by making him change to ABRSM I am holding back.

Noodle

Holding back?

Holding him back. Sorry - its late

I would like to add my bit here.....

I have been entering my pupils for LCM exams for last 10 or so years, and find them very reasonable markers.

But i do think some people on here are putting the LCM down, compared with ABRSM and others.

I have my LLCM and they are a creditable college and are a recoginsed board. So if the pupil has been doing LCM exams why change?

I'm afraid it isn't just me that is 'putting down' London College exams. I work for two music services and several schools and all of them insist that London College exams are not used - except for the school where I've got to teach this particular student. I'm talking about grade exams, not diplomas.

Yes, they are very reasonable markers - that's part of the problem.

gazdudeuk - why do you choose LCM exams for your students and not ABRSM for example?

ABRSM dont do Electronic organ or Keyboard. And ive always done LCM with my past teachers.

Sounds like I might get grade 7 with distinction if I came and did it at your centre, noodle. What does the rep give the examiner for lunch!

Hymns are not at all the same to play as piano pieces and my experience from knowing and teaching many children who played second study piano, as well as my own experience, is that first study pianists invariably find playing hymns much easier than do second study pianists of the same grade. I've no idea why. If the distinction was the result of a lot of hard work from a student who just can't play hymns then I don't see the problem.

But correct fingering cannot be a requirement, can it. If it were then the exam board would be dictating what fingering system to use and they all say that any systematic fingering is accepted. If the scales were played correctly with an unconventional fingering then the examiner has no grounds on which to award anything less than full makrs, whatever his personal thoughts on the matter.

Liz

This is a difficult one. It depends I guess on what reasons you are taking exams for. I think that the LCM is as valued as ABRSM or Trinity - it is after all QCA acredited. However, I would say that the LCM has a reputation - unfairly I think. I think that they offer some interesting exams not offered by any of the other boards.

As for the VCM and others, I would say that it depends on what you want exams for. If you want to be a professional musician then perhaps VCM wouldn't be the best bet as the exams are not QCA acredited; however, as with LCM they offer exams not offered by other boards. Similarly, the National College of Music may be treated in rather the same way as the VCM, but I wholeheartidly agree with their philosophy of creating well-rounded musicians - something which I feel has yet to be picked up by other boards.

David

I add my vote to your original suggestion: transfer him to ABRSM or Trinity and don't put him in for any more exams until he is ready for Grade 5, even if that is three years. Whatever the merits or problems of LCM, it must be to his advantage that you are 100% certain that this is the right thing for his technical and musical development, rather than unconvinced or half-hearted about a compromise. Of course you must judge how much interference or support you might get from other parties, e.g. parents, school, your employers (local authority music service?). Would you mind losing him?

This is an interesting thread as two of my children have done a mixture of LCM and Trinity/AB exams. By that I mean LCM for Grades 1,2 and 4 and Trinity for 3 and 5, although I have to admit their teacher refers to them as the 'more serious' exams. They are currently studying for Trinity 5 and haven't found the transition from LCM difficult at all. Perhaps my children's teacher has kept the standard up ( if at all it needed it ) via other peices they play alongside exam pieces.
The reason this is done depends on the students. In the case of my boys, they use music for pleasure only, and they are more likely to practise pieces of music they enjoy. However, by insisting on Trinity for Grade 5, perhaps he realises aswell, the limitations of the LCM exams as the standards increase.
I know what you mean when you compare them, but I am surprised that your student passed if he really was that bad. Mine usually get a Merit or Distinction but I am a teacher myself and I have to say they are more than ready when entered and always deserve their marks.
Perhaps this is the problem Noodle, that it is the previous teachers fault. I feel really sorry for your student and hope he won't give up by being disheartened that he isn't up to a Grade 5 standard after all.
Good luck!

As for the VCM and others, I would say that it depends on what you want exams for. If you want to be a professional musician then perhaps VCM wouldn't be the best bet as the exams are not QCA acredited; however, as with LCM they offer exams not offered by other boards. Similarly, the National College of Music may be treated in rather the same way as the VCM, but I wholeheartidly agree with their philosophy of creating well-rounded musicians - something which I feel has yet to be picked up by other boards.

David
[/quote]

Yes, David, you're right, in my opinion. I know all these smaller, independent colleges are not QCA accredited, (and I know I have to be careful .....!!) but they have a lot going for them. Good to see a positive reference to the VCM and the NCM, as they both have a philosophy which is attractive to some - if not to many. Did anyone see the article about music exams in the DT this week?

Salahdog

Glad someone shares my opinion! Yes, I did read the article in the DT this week. I could see what she was saying, and to a certain extent I agreed, but I challenge her or anyone else to come up with a better system or solution!

David

Indeed, but I believe the NCM has come up with an initiative called the 'Certificate of Musical Proficiency': do you know anything about it?
Salahdog

Is it the Certificate of Practical Musicianship?

http://www.nat-col-music.org.uk/component%...natcol_cert.htm

Yes. What do you make of it?

I just looked it up to find it's name, I don't know anything else about it .

Have just looked at the LCM syllabus for grade 8 violin and it certainly looks comparable to AB and Trin - in fact, at least 1 piece on the list doesn't feature in AB syllabus until diplomas...

Yeah...I was just looking through past exam pieces and noticed Grade 2 LCM syllabus included Burgmuller's Arabesque...and so did AB Grade 2 syllabus!

I think it's an excellent idea. I've got a flute pupil who is going to do it. She has no interest in doing proper graded exams but something like this provides a useful target to aim for. It is good to reward musicians who perhaps aren't an exemplary standard in one instrument, but who have music skills across a number of areas. By sending recordings, it also takes away the pressure of some of the exam situation.

David

I agree with that, David. Hope she really enjoys it - and feels well rewarded !!

I enter my piano pupils for ABRSM and Guildhall (now Trinity Guilhall) exams and usually I enter my keyboard pupils for Guildhall exams, however at a Music Festival I heard some of the LCM step one pieces and thought I would like to use the LCM tutor book with some young pupils and I entered them for the step one exam. I now have to choose between LCM (new syllabus just out) and the Trinity Guildhall. Although up to now I have had my doubts about LCM exams because I thought they were rather easy, I have found that the Grades include quite a lot of practical tests which may be very useful for GCSE pupils eg, an accompanying test, a test in which the pupil has to improvise a melody over a chord sequence test and the harmonisation of a scale. I have never used the LCM for piano grades but as for keyboard, the exams, I feel are practical and cover a wide area of musical skills and I only began using the board because I found the pieces so appealing in the tutor book! At the moment though, I will stay with ABRSM and Trinity Guildhall for piano.
pms

pms...
what do you think you will do with the pupils who have done Step 1? Will you do Step 2 exam aswell or go on to Grade 1? This is an area I am unsure of, as I too like the setup of Step 1 and 2(they have a good range of useful good technical skills) but am worried that I will hold a pupil back by taking my time over the Steps.

Well miochy I'm still not sure!! I feel that my pupils were really encouraged by doing well in step 1 so thought it would be a bit cheeky to then change to the Trinity Guildhall even though the same sylabuss has been in place for a very long time - a change is due soon but for the time being there are also all of the pieces on the Trinity/Guildhall to choose from...so lots of options there. I feel that I will see which pieces my pupils prefer/do best with although I am quite excited as to what the new sylabuss will be like. Some of my pupils who have been leaning a long time (before I heard the LCM pieces at the music festival) and they will certainly continue with the Trinity/Guildhall and we would only change if we did not like the new sylabuss. As for the pupile who have taken step 1 well I dont't intend to enter them for step 2 - not quite so much fun as step 1 which really is great, everyone loved it! I will enter them for Grade 1 - but still not sure which board! I am still trying to decide. I will keep you posted!
pms

Thanks pms...that is useful. I will stay on the lookout for any other views you have on this.

THanks everyone for your input on this.



The hymn I was referrring to was in a children's hymn book, in the key of C, with one note in each hand, and mainly semibreves in the left hand, no chords so it wasn't that unlike an exam piece. The average grade 2 student could have played it.

Sorry, what I meant to say about scales was his fingering was so bad, he couldn't get through a two octave scale without at least three mistakes. He told me there were mistakes in the exam.

Now I've got a problem! He arrived this week with 'Green Jazzin About', because his friend (also a student of mine) has it. He asked me why he couldn't play any of the pieces in it and his friend (who passed ABRSM grade 4 with merit) has nearly four of them learnt.

I thought the NQA were meant to have got rid of discrepancies between exams.

Both ABRSM and Trinity/Guildhall have more respect in the industry (from what I can tell) so I'd avoid London College and stick with ABRSM and Trinity if I were you. After all you obviously have your own standards to keep.

I have been entering my pupils for London College of Music grade and diploma exams for many years and find them very good in many ways. I like the wide choice of music that they offer and have always found their marking fair. In a practical grade examination 60% of the marks are awarded for pieces and the remaining 40% for sight reading, scales and arpeggios, ear tests and viva voce. If the pupil in question did not play has pieces well then he probably made up for it by responding very well to the other requirements. I get tired of people knocking this college. They are often the ones who have no experience of their exams and have never looked at a syllabus. I worked my way up to F.L.C.M which I earned after playing about an hour of performance from memory, and spent many hours of preparation working with my accompanist. I was delighted when I was awarded Fellowship of the college. I also have an L.T.C.L. amongst my other qualifications so feel able to make a sensible judgement on this matter. May I suggest that it would be a good idea to look over the current lists of London College of Music and Media and check with the appropriate syllabus before being so down on this excellent exam board? As a child I entered both AB and Trinity exams, and never felt unfairly treated by either. I do not feel that my own pupils play to a lesser standard than others of their age who sit other exams than L.C.M. In fact many of them do better in competitions against them, at both local and national levels.

Presumably it's me you are yapping at since I started the thread. Don't be so patronising. I have copies of the syllabus both the previous and the new one in my possession. I am fully aware of how the exam is marked, what I am not so sure about is the standard it is marked to. I do not understand how someone who makes mistakes in scales in the exam through bad fingering still gets 15/15. What is the point of that? If this board is as wonderful as you think, then how come it is less respected than Trinity and ABRSM?

As for the student in question, I have decided that he should continue with London College exams. It would take him about three years to bring his sight-reading up to ABRSM standard for his grade 5 and by then he will have done grade 6 London College and gained some UCAS points too. He just passed grades 1 - 3 ABRSM and has just got his first merit when he changed to London college. His family think he is improving and so he is. I will continue to improve his technique and sight-reading. Maybe I should let all my students do London College exams - it would make my life so much easier and less stressful.

We have to remember that both the ABRSM, Trinity and LCM are all equivalent by QCA standards. Saying that you need to get a pupil up to ABRSM sight-reading standards against the LCM is rubbish. They are both identical - if they weren't, then the QCA wouldn't be worth its existance. One thing that is different is the weight of the marks for different elements though theoretically, they should all be identical standards between boards.

I think that sometimes, were very quick to dismiss other exam boards in favour of what we are comfortable with; sometimes at the expense of some excellent innovations by these other boards.

David

How dare you say my opinion on sight-reading is rubbish. They are not identical, there are fewer scales/arpeggios. I have had the advantage in this argument of working with this student and am experienced enough to know that it will be a few years before he can do ABRSM grade 5 sight-reading.

Have you actually compared the two boards sight-reading examples? I have in front of me a LCM grade 5 book with Sight-reading examples in it. There are 3 piano teachers visiting me at the moment. I have just shown them the sight-reading on P34 of LCM grade 5 piano. Apart from test A being in compound time we agree that they are about grade 2 ABRSM standard. They are nowhere near as complex as the rhythm and keys required for ABRSM grade 5.

I do not consider pupils passing exams with merit when technically they aren't ready, getting full marks for scales which aren't known excellent innovations, I call it giving students/parents a false impression.

Yes, theoretically they should all be the same standard but in practice we know that isn't the case.

No Noodle, I am not "yapping" at you personally. If you read my comments again you will see that I refer to those who are critical of the London College grade exams when they have no experience of their content. Obviously you have worked with a pupil on the syllabus so this would not apply to you but there are many who hold opinions based on very little, if any, knowledge of their exams.

I too have also worked with candidates on the LCM exams, and I personally regard their standards as high as ABRSM or Trinity. One thing which is different is the ephasis between different areas of the syllabus.

David

Ok. Sorry!

Apology accepted. Thank you.

For what it's worth...I don't think you can 'get someone up to ABRSM sight reading standard'. In my experience of playing...it is repertoire and practise that improves sight reading. I always failed my sight reading in my AB exams , or got a pathetic pass, and still managed to get Grade 8 distinction. The reason I was so bad at sight reading is, for me, starting quite late learning the piano ( 10 ). It took me 7 years to get all the grades.
The more pieces I played, the better I got. My sight reading is still not brill, but not too bad either now ! Also, my first teacher made me start all peices hands separately. My second teacher (amazing teacher!) corrected loads of my technique and made me attempt my new pieces hands together before taking them apart and perfecting them.
Basically, the more practise I had at sight reading , the better I got.
I think the fault lies with the previous teacher Noodle, as opposed to London College exams, which , actually, I think have an important part to play in the music exam system. After all, we don't want to produce 'musical robots'.
Good luck, Noodle...you sound like you'll get this pupil sorted out.

Yes, Miochy, I agree that most of the problems this student has is due to bad teaching - 6 years with his previous teacher. I have had to sub for this teacher on many occasions and I am horrified at the way all her students are taught. Interestingly her students can't get anything higher than a pass at ABRSM or Trinity so it isn't hard to reach the conclusion that she only enters students for London College because it makes her results (teaching) look better. Having said that - she is a good teacher - all her students play exactly like her This student certainly is a challenge but I don't give up easily!