What does anyone else think?! Shocked me when I read it, I can tell you........

chocolatedog, where on earth did you find that?

Yes, Grade 8 within three years is certainly feasible - for example, Husband learnt the oboe as a child. His oboe teacher's son started the flute and passed Grade 8 about 18 months later, but these were exceptional circumstances - he'd grown up in an extremely musical environment, and it wasn't his first instrument. Some people to tend to gel with a particular instrument as well.

It sounds as though the author teaches their students three pieces to pass Grade 5, and then a further three to pass Grade 8, and nothing else. I wonder how the author's students manage with sight-reading, aural and scales.

Whilst I can see that daily lessons would pay dividends, are there many students out there willing to attend (or parents willing to pay for) seven lessons a week? Isn't that supervised practice rather than anything else?

Yes. How many people are in a position to have a lesson every day and how many know when they are practising something incorrectly? If you have musical parents then this is more of an option but for the rest of us it isn't. I got to grade 8 after about 8 years (not piano) yet I do consider myself to be 'serious about it'. Or isn't that allowed?

(Having said that it's coming up to the first anniversary of me starting recorder lessons and I am working on the grade 8 syllabus - but I already had the relevant musical background/had learned how to practise effectively).

Perhaps you can't generalise this much. A lot of people don't want music learning to be 'serious', anyway...

I've seen this post before so I think I know where Chocolatedog got it from. The poster "B" is a well-respected authority on that forum and has many good suggestions. I do not believe that "B" as Deborah suggests just teaches the three Grade 5 pieces then the three Grade 8 pieces. From what I have read of his/her posts he/she truly believes that music like other subjects should be taught all the time. "B" strongly is against the common practice of suspending music lessons during school breaks as he/she believes valuable time is lost here. I guess he/she does have a point there. I believe "B" teaches students of all ages from young children to elderly adults so his older students would not be affected by school breaks.

Personally I am not at the musical level to make a judgment as to the merits of skipping straight to grade 5 and then to grade 8. However I think it could be feasible if the student has a solid theoretical background which I believe "B" tries to instill in his/her students. There is another discussion on this forum discussing going from grade 6 to grade 8 so therefore "B's" approach here is not unconventional.

http://forums.abrsm.org/index.php?showtopic=12663

Sounds like over working at music. May be the opposite of many students we can think of but it's still outrageous. And yes, if they are doing grade 5 and grade 8 to the exclusion of all else that's a blatant abuse of the exam system. I don't have time to do exams this year so I'm just 'enjoying' playing. Clarinet - going over old material, some new things to work on. Piano - working through Bach 2+3 part, 'the 48', Mozart/Beethoven sonatas, etc.

Also, what exactly is 'normal'? Older learners generally learn faster than younger ones. So are young children 'not normal'?

Extremism of this kind is best ignored.

What can happen if a child has a 30 minute lesson every day is irrelevant. Apart from wildly exceptional circumstance, this is not going to happen.

Steve

hmmmmmmmmm! sounds like a higly qualified and supportive teacher there.

I guess I was shocked because not even my best pupils would have ever been able to do that! Does 'B' select his pupils? I can't imagine many of mine ever having the ability to get to grade 5 in a year - unless they already are proficient at another instrument first.......The problem with it is it made me feel really inferior as a teacher and that I'm doing something wrong, although having said that, piano in this country is just one of the hundreds of extra activities kids do these days.........jack of all trades and master of none!!!........

Where does LIFE come into this approach?! I'm serious about music, and commit time to it, but in proportion to the other demands on my time, and I guess such proportions will vary from person to person. Also, I'd worry about burn-out in someone getting daily lessons, and the danger of assuming that everyone's rate of learning is the same. It could also kill enthusiasm rather than creating it. I'd rather that kids had music as part of an education "in the round", and that they could then choose at a later stage what they really want to do.

Well, it took me 6 years to get to grade 5 clarinet, and just over 9 years to reach grade 8. I am now a woodwind teacher, and to say that anyone who doesn't reach grade 5 in a year or so isn't serious about it seems a bit strange, as most of the pupils I have want to get as good as possible, as quickly as possible. Most people, in my opinion won't reach grade 8 in 3 years (the best pupil I've had got there in 3 and a half years, and she already played piano before playing clarinet). Besides, isn't the whole point of playing an instrument to enjoy it, whatever standard you are?

Well I'm serious about music, and I most definately have been playing longer than two years and I'm only grade 4-5 standard.

Moreover, to state that anyone that does not reach Grade 5 after 1-2 years is 'not serious' about music surely implies that the poster feels the majority of people who study or teach music are 'not serious', despite the fact it may be their livelihood. I'm sure there must be professional musicians who did not progress at this rate, but I doubt they'd be pleased with his/her classification of them.

Daily lessons would doubtless be beneficial (to an extent, but I have to wonder when they can practice), but is obviously unfeasible for the vast majority of people. Also, if he/she gives daily lessons, then one can assume he/she does not have a great number of students and so is able to select the best from the people who apply.

Although this may come down to linguistics: what does the poster mean by serious? I'm serious about wanting to learn and progress, but I don't want to make music my career. And I'm not prepared to sacrifice everything else in my life to progress at music (or at any of the things I do). If you were to have daily lessons, you would have to be completely certain about your commitment to music at the expense of everything else.


I disagree with that.

This is ridiculous!!! It puts a great deal of pressure on the students being taught this way & also makes them feel inadequate if they do not reach this highly ambitious goal - oh sorry my mistake, apparently it is "really simple!" I do not think there is a need to rush grades & just because you haven't reached grade 8 in 1-3 years of playing an instrument, it does not mean that you are not taking music seriously. In this case it seems that someone is taking music a little too seriously! As Steve said, this kind of extremism should be ignored & I don't know of anyone who has music lessons every single day! Think of how expensive that would be!

Lisa xxx

er...for normal people I'd think not. Obviously for some special cases its possible , e.g. if someone is exceptionally talented or has previous experience at a similar instrument, but in general for instruments such as piano, how on earth would anybody be able to get the right amount of experience behind their hands after only a few months? Even if they practised 10 hours a day i think they'd only scrape a pass...
Why would anyone want to do this anyway? As surely passing an exam isnt just about the grade but about the ability and achivements associated with it?

When I first read this, I thought it was unbelievable. CD it shocked me too! I'm sure it is possible to do grade 8 in 3 years but I wonder how much is sacrificed in getting there - and how many short-cuts are taken. I had a student do grade 8 viola in less than two years, but she was a grade 6 violinist when she started viola so technically she wasn't a beginner on stringed instruments. When I read this quote, I was reminded of another thread about someone who has passed grade 8 and says they 'can't play the piano' because all they have done is a succession of exam pieces!

I think it's possible (I know people who have done it) but I certainly don't think it's normal or what can be expected of the average student. I have gone back to piano after a break (I had 3 years of lessons and did grade 3 years ago) and have been having regular lessons and practising hard for a year and a half, and I would struggle to learn a grade 5 piece now: I probably could, but I'd struggle: and that was starting from having good basic knowledge, if a little rusty, of the piano, and not having to learn to read music etc...

hmmm i think this person may be - as someone else suggested - teaching ppl that:

a) can read music - which is about 75% of the battle won already
can already play at least one other instrument and so there is used to practice and discipline - and therefore seeing results

For instance I've read music since i was 4 - then played recorder for a few years as an infant and got used to practice i spose, then i plinked around on my grans keyboard every week and picked up a bit of theory as i was going along - for instance how the notes on recorder relate to the keyboard etc, then i started playing cornet at age 8 and progressed up to grade 5 in 3 years. Some would say that was fast but as i said it was mostly just because i could read music already!

Then i played trumpet for years and years through grade 8, diploma, uni and now at 22 iv just taken up the sax - completely different to brass. I got it at Christmas and have taught myself (just started getting the odd pointer from a fellow teacher now) and i can play grade 5 standard stuff and am attempting grade 6 stuff already. My point being that through my musical background i could already read music, i already knew how to use my diaphragm and blow and breathe correctly, produce dynamics, tongue notes, slur notes and i also know how to practice effectively. I might add over Christmas i practiced 2 hours most days lol

So yes if he is just teaching already practicing musicians then he prob can get them to grade 5 in 2 years.

However, if he's suggesting you can do that with your average non musician child then sorry, but i dont swallow it, and would certainly not send my child to him!!!

I've noticed especially these last few years that the Chinese community I'm in is quite competitive with music between each of their kids (e.g. My kid is grade 8, yours is only grade 7 hahaha...) and they've started to pile pressure on them, luckily my parents don't do this but at a new year party thing, they had a piano. I didn't play because I hate playing in front of people whoi do nothing but critisize you but some of the younger kids did. One of them was a boy about 9 or 10 who had been playing for about 8 months and had already 'mastered' some of the easier movements of Mozart sonatas and a lot of the well known stuff like Rondo Alla Turca, Fur Elise, 1st movement of Moonlight sonata..etc...and I think he's going to do grade 4 or 5 straight away. One thing that got me was that the playing wasn't even that good, hardly 'musical' at all, and it was clear that all he'd done was learn the notes and then move onto a harder piece. Surely its better to perfect an easier piece and play it musically than to play something way out of your depth and stumble through it?

Also why does it matter about grades? As useful as they are, they don't mean everything. I mean Mozart wouldn't have passed a grade 8 exam would he? But he was an extremely talented guy.

I tend to agree with Sarah. Yes, of course, it's possible as this is precisely what my girl aims to do. I was so shocked I asked - Why? She gave me a cheeky precocious grin - I need the money, mum. For my violin. The sooner I teach, the better, don't you think?

BUT I certainly don't think it's common at all or what can be expected of the average teacher. The teacher has to be very good not only in terms of inspiration and motivation but also at teaching the instrument and imparting effective practice strategies. This may take years of teaching experience. Further, what works for one kid may not work with another.

Moreover he/she also needs co-operative kids who are truly passionate and who practise regularly. If all/most of his students made it to grade 8 level within just 3 years, he must have selected them. He must also have in the process ditched not a few others along the way. It is then very much possible.

But, is this rush desirable? Is it worth plunging into? Is it for the proud/insecure child or parent to show off? Or, maybe the teacher has a need to prove himself?

What about the sacrifices along the way? What happens when the kid burns out? There are so many ancillary questions, I guess, even Menuhin who has had daily lessons and home schooling, may not be able to answer!

Having said that I was visiting a special needs school recently and I bumped into the headmistress who spoke at length about music therapy but went off-tangeant when she realised my son was fixated with the piano as a result of his autism in an unhealthy way. She told me about her son. He made such rapid progress on his violin that he went to BOTH Purcell and Junior Guildhall simultaneously at 12 before ending up as an orchestral musician today. I was so surprised that I went - What? Both Purcell and Guildhall? But she said he LOVED it and enjoyed himself so much that to him, it was no sacrifice to study and practise music much of the time! All I could say, was - This is most uncommon! You must be very proud of him.

Starting from scratch with no other instrumental experience, I'd guess it's possible for maybe 50% (upper bound) of people to pass grade 8 piano in three years; to actually be of grade 8 piano standard in three years is possible for less than 0.1% of people. Unfortunately the two are far too often confused. It's a lot easier to pass grade 8 than it is to be of grade standard.

I know a brilliant saxophonist that achieved grade 8 standard within 10 months of starting to play the instrument.

Exceptional, though.

Steve

Funny that, so do I!

Though Nat did know how to read music and was coming from clarinet and a very sound musical background... I should think that grade 8 absolutely from scratch in 10 months (or even a year, or even 3) and actually REALLY being at that standard (especially I should think on piano and maybe also string instruments) is a very rare thing. I know someone who took both grade 5 and 8 and got 130 in grade 8 within a year of starting piano lessons, but 1) he's an exceptional musician and 2) he did have to go back and "fill in the gaps" in his repertoire and technique and knowledge afterwards.

In the far east like Singapore or HK where there is an exam culture and no local or regional music festivals, students have no choice but to do an exam for benchmarking purposes to check progress, year after year after year. It is very sad. At the end of the day, my little niece ends up with a grade 8 distinction which is not meaningful to her. It's meaningful to the adults, though. But then she has loads of gaps to fill and being a dutiful daughter, she has played nothing but scales and exam pieces all her life.

I'm sitting on the fence about this, really. I can see how someone can say that, as I guess they are talking about intense practising that would certainly let them progress faster.
In another view, I love music. And yes, I am serious about it. Just because I may have had other things going on my life that restricts me from passing Grade 5 so soon, in no way should that be a measure as to how serious I am about music.

Sure, it could be possible to reach the top end of the grade exams in 3 years...But what's the rush? Some people can play way above grade 8 standard and may never have taken an exam in their lives. Just because someone has a certificate stating a particular standard also doesn't mean that they enjoy playing anymore than the next person.... It's also plesurable to build up a parts of a repetoire inbetween exams as a break...or so I find

I hope not! I'm deadly setrious with all my instruments but did not get to g5 standard in such a small amount of time!

Don't know if anyone else thought this, but I found it amusing that the post above this one on the list was from someone saying they have grade 8 but only know their exam pieces, and now need to learn the piano!
Beverley.

It is not amusing. It is tragic. And, it's sadly, true. My little niece who is in Year 8 in HK only learns piano exam pieces and other exam requirements after her grade 1, such as scales for example, etc, year after year after year after year since she first began. My sister who works in HK didn't think it odd as she is a career woman who travels extensively and she has left it to her piano teacher whom she guessed as a professional knows best. It's only when she discussed it with me years later as I see her only twice/thrice a year that she realised there is an alternative view (broadening repertoire) that is just as valid.

I've come across this post before on that forum. I think he's also a professional musician or something. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. Can't remember it very well but I remember this post quite well because of the high grade number in a short span of years. Most people take 1 grade a year.

Interesting post.... my young son managed grade 5 with distinction in just under 3 year with me teaching him. He tries to practise daily(school work permitting) for at least 30 mins and always warms up on scales, plays a variety of pieces and is totally committed. I am there to pick up any mistakes and I have shown him the correct way to practise. But even with all the correct support and committment I dont think he will achieve grade 8 for at least another 2-3 years, not if he is to fit all the repetitoire in and keep up his other 2 instruments and the dreaded grade 5 theory.

The original poster must have students that are very committed and have no other interests to pursue. I think it is very hard to start from scratch and get to such high level in such a short space of time without losing technique and repetitoire along the way.

I've been learning the Piano since I was eight, I play compitently, compitently enough to teach it, but as most of the Grade VIII Material requires larger hands than I have to play it, I'm not going to do Grade VIII.

This is despite being musical, despite having a sound technique, and despite the necessary motivation.

Today I'm happy with my lot and realise Grade VIII is not the be-all-and-end-all of life.