I am looking for a cello to suit my son who is at grade 4 but is need of a full size cello now. Can anyone advise me on the qualities of a PRIMA 200 4/4. Many Thanks

It's certainly got a good enough reputation within its price range. Whether it's the best buy for you will depend on one or two things such as, how much are you paying for it? Will any extra work have been done to it for that price, what is your budget, and so on? if you answer those points I'll do my very best to give you an unbiased answer

Liz

Thanks for the interest. The cello is listed on EBAY for £400 with a hard case plus a soft case too. Would it be a good buy!. My son needs something quite good as he is likely to progress quite quickly, but we are on a budget. We have thought about buying a cello on monthly terms. Could you reccomend a company thet may do such athing, should this cello be a non starter!

Well, my gut feeling is that I would go for it if I was in the market for £400 worth of cello. Reasoning and cautions to follow:

The hard case itself would cost you somewhere around £200-£300 new depending on what make and model it is, and assuming it's half decent it can stay with you when you upgrade the cello. The Jargar strings and the set-up work will make the cello play as well as it can. To get the set-up done on a cello you purchased from a discount warehouse would cost you at least £50 - and you might struggle to get it done in a reasonable time - and a new set of jargar strings would cost you £60 - £70. One caution is that these strings have probably been on the cello a long time and may well be showing signs of wear and probably need changing anyway, but they should still sound better than the factory strings. The new list price on the Prima 200 cello outfit (with the padded bag of course rather than the hard case) is £539 but shops that do work to the cello and restring it would charge a higher price than that.

Now the cautions:

1. The seller is a newbie and as such has no track record. Chances are very high that the cello does exist (it's not the kind of item that is likely to be the subject of an out and out fraudulent listing) but what you won't know is whether it is in the condition described.

2. Make sure the seller is prepared to post it bridge up, otherwise the chances of the soundpost collapsing in transit are something like 50% in my experience and if it does collapse in transit you are going to have to find a repairer to put it up again. If it's at all possible, go and collect the cello unless the seller is experienced in posting these things (if she is then she is a business disguising herself as a private seller and that would sound all sorts of alarm bells to me, but chances are very high that she is a genuine private seller and therefore is not used to posting cellos)

3. At grade 4 this cello probably isn't going to last your son very long - expect to upgrade again in a couple of years time. This applies even more to the bow - bows need upgrading before instruments, that is a very cheap bow and chances are high that, if it has actually been used, is already warped. But. like the case, a new bow can obviously be kept when you upgrade the cello.

If you're not entirely familiar with ebay bidding then let me also give you this advice - bid at the last minute, but put in one bid only and make the bid the very highest you are prepared to go - that's the only way to have no regrets afterwards. i suspect at this time of the year you will have little or no competition and may well even get it for £400.

I don't know of any companies that offer monthly terms - such a company would obviously have to be a licensed credit broker and you would be paying maximum prices for the privilege. Using a credit card or even a small personal loan would give you the freedom to shop around and probably get a much better buy. It is possible (I haven't looked) that you might find a shop that would do rental on a better cello and then deduct the rental from the pourchase price, but again of course you will be paying top prices to do that.

Hope this helps a bit.

Liz

I'm sure Liz's advise is good. I can sympathise with the cost of new cellos as we have just purchased a full-size for my son (from Liz as it happens - she knows her stuff and sells nice instruments).

The Prima 200 outfit appears to be available new from http://www.cerddystwyth.co.uk/newtest/acatalog/Cello.html for £375 (without the hard case of course), but that might be an error on their site as it usually goes for £530+ in most places. Might be worth looking into if your bid is unsuccessful?

What Liz didn't mention is that she has a cello for sale currently at £600 which, if you could rise to it, would I'm sure be very nice, good value for money and last your son longer than the Prima (don't think it has a case at all however).

Good luck

Ah, thanks

That site has the smallest size as the headline price - the price on a 4/4 is £400 for the full size cello, plus delivery - still that is way below the list price and they can be making hardly anything on it. I'd LOVE to know who they have found who delivers cellos for £12.95 on next day delivery - we'd like to get in touch with them!!

Liz

Oh yes, well spotted Liz - crafty that. Our new cello is sounding better and better at the moment - whether that's him getting used to it or the cello opening up I couldn't say (possibly both).

Mumoftwo - another possibilty would be to explore hiring one from the Benslow trust. You would get a much better instrument that way - but it wouldn't be yours.

My son isnt up to 4/4 yet... but www.ackermanmusic.co.uk do an excellent hire scheme £30 a term for cello, only catch is you have to pick it up.

Other students have purchased from http://www.gear4music.com/index.php?sec=pr...pcode=CELLOD44# and upgraded with Jargar strings. I know of one person on a budget who has done this and is working towards grade 6.

Otherwise if you can spend the extra go with Elidatrading as you are buying a 4/4 which we last a lot longer. I cant wait to my son gets to 4/4 and I can get him a decent cello.

I would also recommend the Benslow trust...... my son's teacher recommend them but I wasnt too comfortable with my 9 year old taking a very expensive instrument to school with him. Dont trust the other kids !!

As for wheeled cases I have just purchased 1/2 ABS Stagg wheeled case from Germany through ebay for under £100 including next day delivery. Not as padded as the case that is offered by Gear4music which also has a music pocket but it is waterproof.

Thanks for all the replies. Food for thought! We are leaning towards trying for the Prima now, we'll see tomorrow. Can you explain a bit more about upgrading? Will my son need to replace the cello with a different one as he progresses? Apologies for my lack of understanding in the world of cellos.

I would say so. To be fair, i am not much of a cellist. But the Prima 200 violin and viola would only normally be recommended up to about grade 5. Now, cellos are much more expensive of course and it may well be that it is common for people at sya grade 8 to play a cello that, if it was a violin, would only be considered suitable up to about grade 5, if you see what i mean. It may be like that, I don't know. I do recall selling a Gems 2 cello (which is a romanian one well above the Zeller or Poller, therefore a long way above a Prima 200) to an 11 year old who was about grade 5 standard but auditioning for a specialist music school (and he did get in) and that cello was considered by the repairer we then used to be not really good enough but there was a genuine limit on the amount that could be spent. As it happened the boy was rather lucky - the cello developed a fault and at the time we had been badly let down on the purchase of a Gama cello and had one in stock that frankly we wanted to move quickly, and we were feeling generous, so we replaced that cello with a Gama and the Gama was apparently considered by the teacher to be amongst the best in the school even though there must have been cellists there well above grade 8. To put another perspective on it, we sold a Gems cello to a sixth former doing grade 7 at a very well renowned public school and that was very readily accepted by the very high level teacher. So all that would suggest to me that two high level teachers were not as fussy as our repairer. Clearly opinions vary. Frumpy's son has obtained exceptional results using what is presumably a rather basic cello - the examiner is always marking the playing rather than the instrument, that is worth bearing in mind.

But I suspect i'm just rambling for no purpose and there are instruments to be posted so I'd better go

Liz

I'm not entirely sure what makes one instrument more suitable for higher grades than another - I've always assumed it's due to being easier to play in higher positions and better tone, but it's an interesting question. I e-mailed a lot of cello sellers when looking for my son's cello and told them I was looking for a "cello suitable to go up to grade 8 and for amateur use beyond that" (which is my best and maybe optimistic guess at what it will be used for). Most suggested I should spend in the region of £2000 - the highest suggested minimum was £2500. Of course you have to bear in mind people have a vested interest in selling you as expensive a cello as possible and as Liz says I expect a lot of people do manage with less expensive instruments. If it's well set-up that probably goes a long way to compensate. The Prima 200 is variously described as 'a beginner or mid-range cello' or 'suitable for grades 1-6' so you may need another beyond that.

Interestingly, when my son tried out 4 cellos (not knowing their price) in a shop his preference ran in price order, on playing a more expensive one he would say "ooh, this is nice" and I think he was referring to the feel as much as the tone. It gave me at least some confidence that he knew what he was looking for even if it was hard to define. Liz's cello was chosen by my son and his teacher over the most expensive of those 4 though it cost less than the cheapest.

I hope it doesn't prove to be the same story with the bows

Liz

So far the most expensive bow is third favorite - so I might get away with that!

Liz you are so right my son plays on an old 1/4 stentor 2 with upgraded dominant strings with a professional setup and basic P&H bow. The tone is actually really nice for the price. The good strings help. However his next cello will have jargar strings as his teacher prefers them.

Ooooh, thanks for that! I was planning on getting that one as a starter instrument after a 3 month rental from the local shop to check that I really want to stick with it. Thanks for the info there!

I must say I dont teach cello but I know 2 cello teachers, one who has students using these cellos with upgraded strings. I have not heard them so I cannot recommend only pass on information that I have heard.

Mumoftwo, you missed it - did you change your mind?

Liz

Just to thank everyone for their advice as it was all very helpful. Unfortunately the budget will not stretch any further than £400,so we looked again at the cello on ebay but we were not courageous enough to but the bid on , should it have turned out to be a bad one. Lucky for us, there were no other bidders and we were able to contact the seller, arrange a visit to try it out before we buy. The seller bought the cello in May 2002 and paid in all £1000 (upgrades,cases etc.). She explains that it has hardly been touched and is in perfect condition so we are crossing our fingers. We appreciate that our son will need to upgrade again at some point, but we'll cross that bridge later. Thanks again to all !

That's an impressive mark up by whatever shop it came from!

I hope it turns out to be just what you want, it does sound like a good buy.

liz