My husband would like our daughter to take up the piano this Sept. Come to think of it, he has always wanted this but so far she has quite cleverly outsmarted him and got out of it. He said she could take up violin if she can play the piano with 2 hands. Miraculously, she did this within weeks of starting piano - she just practised and practised till she could play 4 pieces with 2 hands. Then she showed us and we let her start violin and within a few short months she quit piano! Don't need this any more she said, it's boring and besides I only take it up so I can get to violin. We were flabbergasted. She said she wants to do jazz piano maybe in the future but not till she is playing grade 8 distinction level violin first.

Is this an unreasonable request/ploy?

What are the pros and cons? I'm tempted to let her be as I'm the child-oriented type of mum but some of my friends think I'm a bit too soft whilst others think it's a bad idea to start piano in year 7/8 due to homework reasons? My only concern is, it won't do her violin any good if she does not "know" the piano? On the other hand, the Director of Junior Academy seems to think it's possible for the primary kids to have "keyboard skills for transposition and composition" without having to take up the piano as a 2nd instrument.

Please help.

If you wouldn't push for her to take up any other instrument she is not interested in then why push her into piano?
I know the arguments for keyboard skils but she sounds like the sort of child who will put the necessary effort into that if and when it becomes important in her overall musical development.

I think it's one of those situations where I'm not sure there is ever a right answer.
I battled continually with my boys to keep them playing the piano(I am an expert at bribery now!). They are 14 and 16 now and learning Grade 5 stuff which, as you all know...is another big step. They do not have the commitment needed so I have said they can stop.

My middle one wants to carry on 'sometime in the future', and my other wants to get past his GCSE's first.
It's like a huge weight lifted for both of them.

Was I right in keeping them going (at least they have tasted music..and can take it up again if 'they' want to)...or should I have let them stop after their grade 1..when they first wanted to stop?
I will never know...however, my middle son brought a piece of music home from the 'general' music lesson at school...and was able to play it. He got such a buzz, and showed off to his friends.
All in all, I think they have learned invaluable skills.

As for you daughter Tess..it is a difficult one. I don't know enough about violin requirements to give advise on that aspect.
My daughter loves playing the piano and has recently taken up the violin..yes, knowing piano already has definitely helped her.
I think you are right and very forward thinking to investigate any keyboard skills that might be needed for learning violin. It wouldn't have crossed many parents' minds!
Good luck..and I'll keep reading this thread with interest...I'd like to know aswell!!

Perhaps your husband should take up piano instead?

I second that. Who knows, maybe if her dad's learning she'll discover an interest in the instrument too. Or maybe not. Maybe he'll enjoy it more than she does, though.

In your position, I'd probably just feel very grateful that my daughter was so motivated and interested in the instrument that clearly calls to her. I think there'd be little to gain from forcing her to study and instrument she doesn't like. I don't think there's anything 'soft' about allowing a child to learn an instrument that she desparately wants to excel in.

I wonder if it might help to shift focus from a heavy achievement and future orientation, to allowing her to enjoy what she's doing right now. It doesn't sound like she needs other people watching her future for her - sounds like she's managing that very well all by herself.

Parental consistency plays a part here. Insisting a child does something that requires the sort of commitment that playing a musical instrument does, only works if that is how you normally bring her up.

If this is not so and you suddenly try to be different, she will be confused and you will be inconsistent with insisting on practise.

This is how I answer parents who ask whether they should 'make' a child practise.

You do not come across as Mrs Domineering The question is, what bribe is suffiently substantial to persuade your daughter to take the piano to the level of grades 6 - 8?

Steve

Tess, The rate she's going I would have thought she'd be grade 8 distinction level even before years 7/8 and even if not, with her academic abilities I doubt she'll find the homework too onerous to start piano even then. Just on account of her age, I don't think I'd fight this one now - time is on her side.

I'm sure it would be a great idea if Viohazard took up piano, but as it is he took up guitar "by mistake" as he keeps reminding me, and shows more interest in shamisen, piano accordion, or even french horn than piano...

...so, what I'm trying to say is, there may be many things which it would benefit our children to do, such as work out a great system for winning lotteries, but in the end, the question is what kids could and would learn. Viohazard has indeed gained some of the advantages of learning a harmony instrument through guitar...but that alone, worthy goal though it is, would not have kept him at it.

And maybe piano accordion is not such a bad idea anyway?

Steve, you have made an unusual point that didn't cross my mind before. I have never forced her to practise her violin. Nor do I recall ever paying her a bribe to this effect. So if I give in to my hubby and with a united front, we "make" her start it for the sake of learning harmony which is supposed to be good for her overall musical development, I guess, you are right, Steve. I'd be inconsistent and yes, she'd be confused. Terrible thought. Valid point though that I will eventually not be able to follow this through especially since in principle, I don't believe in playing without enjoyment. Also, this kid is very stubborn and independent. Must mention this when we discuss this tomorrow - in her absence. Mustn't let her see her parents as a "disunited" front.

Ah yes, the old 'divide and rule' principle

Most kids latch on to that

How about planting the germ of an idea - this does no harm. Most unis and music colleges want orchestral instrumentalists and singers to have reached grade 5\6 standard on the piano; sometimes so they do not have to study the piano as part of the course, sometimes as a prerequisite to entry to the course - the reason Nat was in such a flurry about taking piano grades last year.

What about mentioning this to D and then leaving it, apart from occasional reminders? Maybe sometime soon she will ask herself if it is worth while covering her options.

Steve

i wouldn't push her too hard - year 7 and 8 are a big step from primary schools homework wise! and if she doesn't want to do it, then don't force her.
i got really into music in year 9 - i think a lot of people found 'their direction' in that year, especially as it's option picking time. maybe if you wait a little longer she might choose to learn of her own accord.
or maybe you could find a jazz teacher and persuade her to have lessons once a fortnight or something, so it's not some massive deal but she's still learning. that's about the best ideas i can think of i'm afraid! at least she's enjoying violin though, that's a great thing!
hoxie
x

Do you have a piano of some kind?

Me too. A lonnnnnng time ago

Steve

Likewise!

Yes, we have a Clavinova, Storini and the mystery is, she enjoys playing hymns, carols and praise/gospel songs on it all by herself just with her right hand.

No mystery, Tess. Most of the teachers here will have experience of kids who love 'doodling' on the piano but hate the idea of learning it formally.

Heidi can barely keep her hands off my piano. Actual lessons? Forget it. There is a huge difference between doodling and practising, and kids recognise it.

Steve

Yes indeed, that's exactly what motivated my question.

I'd be inclined to say she should be encouraged to dabble with the piano for pleasure and fun at this stage. To turn it into a regimented ordeal of scales and grades seems quite counter-productive and at variance with how she approaches the violin.

It would help to make the piano more attractive if you listened to some more piano music CD's at home: I suspect violin music makes up rather a large proportion of what is in your CD player! Taken as a whole, the piano repertoire is the greatest of any solo instrument, and is an inexhaustible treasury of sublime art music. Also go to some piano recitals maybe. This may help trigger the "I'd like to play that..." urge and motivation to learn.

If the interest continues, you could suggest a few piano lessons to pick up a bit of technique, and to prevent bad habits, but not necessarily at all to do grades. Should grades be thought necessary, Trinity have been mentioned as being less onerous for routine scales etc.

I think Storini's right, especially about listening to more piano music - Viohazard's interest in piano took a big jump after watching "The Pianist" and for a while there, Chopin dominated the CD player.

I noticed he was playing the piano more lately and managed to keep quiet about it, whereupon he said one day "I'm getting quite a lot better on the piano!".I think that a kid who is highly motivated on one instrument will eventually set some kind of standard for themselves even at dabbling level on another instrument.

Storini, very interesting comments, there. Yes and No.

NO, there's PLENTY of piano music at home instead and FEW violin CDs that belong to us. The violin CDs at home belong to her violin teacher on perpetual loan! He has TONS and is always recommending this and that. He lent her little Menuhin's encores, Tasmin Little and Gil Shaham CDs on her 4th lesson. I was astonished when hubby and her got home one night, laden with all these CDs, and I thought - Is this guy a music crusader or what?! He lent his students CDs all the time...

The piano and voice CDs belong to us!

YES, your advice makes a lot of sense. Looks like we should really, like you and sbhoa say, let her be and if it develops, then let her do fun stuff. Will keep our eyes and ears open.

Glad you reminded us abt Trinity as we are well aware that grade 5 piano is in general, compulsory for both musicians and music teachers alike.

It's been very helpful this sounding board.

Thank you all very much!

Tess, also bear in mind that if D wants to go to music college or go into teaching violin, basic keyboard skills are expected, and necessary. That doesn't mean she has to practice daily and get her grade 8 though. Maybe for someone like her, learning piano in a less formal manner would be better, as in without grades and using it for musicianship skills, not learning the most difficult piece possible. To D, it would seem probably more of a fun thing, and violin would still be her "proper" instrument - she wouldn't need to feel bad about not practicing more than 3 days a week on piano or anything.
That's what I'm going to do!

If she does have lessons at some point, you probably should make sure that her teacher is one you can trust to be understanding about her passion for the violin, and that she's not likely to practice the piano as much etc. Some teachers get rather blinkered about their own instruments, and can be a bit funny about you if you have your priorities on other things (I had this problem with my teacher when I was a little older than VN) If she has lessons, she needs a teacher who will be flexible and understanding, and will realise that she's not intending to plough through to grade 8 and has no ambition beyond being "good enough".

One very good thing about learning piano will be her becoming fluent in the bass clef, which will be a help with her theory. It's generally (I find, anyway!) much easier to deal with a clef that you regularly play in.

Thanks, Bo and Sarah. Yes, we will bear that in mind when we pick a piano teacher one of these days.

my adive is short and sweet!


Its upto her !

hahaha!

glad to know i wasn't the only lunactic year 9 to pick music of all things...*blames madness on my incredible music teachers*

Year 9, eh? Crazy cow, you've given me an idea.