Hi, wonder if it is illegal to post this topic here.

Anyway, does any of you play keyboard in Charasmatic church? For example, those Hillsong, etc.... I have trouble playing the rhythm correctly and always can't find the suitable chords. Is there any method of playing them?

Thanks

I belong to a lively church too. How do you play? Are you playing the melody with a LH or your own chordal accompaniment?

The congregations in most churches rarely sing every song as the composer intended if there are tricky rhythms. They "sanitise" the rhythm.

They are worth getting right though in the first place. If you play in a band listen to what the drums and bass are doing and try to fit in with them.

I play keyboard and lead our church music group, although my church is not quite like Hillsong!!! The problem with a lot of contemporary songs is that they are extremely complex rhythmically, which makes them difficult to play. Can you read the guitar chord symbols above the top stave? In a lot of songbooks you get the normal piano stave plus little symbols eg G D7 Bm/D etc above the top stave. If you can use these, it means you don't have to struggle to read every note that's been written, and in time you can learn to 'vamp' your own accompaniment. The written accompaniments for songs can vary so much - somtimes over-simplified, and sometimes over-complex and it's learning to improvise around what's there which is the best way. I rarely if ever play exactly what's there (also partially dependent on which band members and instruments are there at the service too. e.g. if the drumkit is missing I play a much more rhythmic accompaniment, but if the drummer is there, I tend to 'fill in' more and leave gaps etc, as I can rely on him to provide a steady rhythmic background.)

As for the guitar chords, G = a chord of G major, D = D major etc

Dm = D minor, Cm = C minor etc

G7 means the dominant 7th chord so a major chord plus the note a minor 7th above the root - here GBDF
D7 therefore is DFsharpAC
C7 would be CEGBb etc.

G6 is the same idea - a G major chord plus the note a 6th above the root so GBDE
D6 = DFsharpAB etc

When you get the G/B it means a G chord, but with a B as the bassnote - basically a 1st inversion.
G/D is a G chord with D as the bassnote i.e. a 2nd inversion.

Gsus4 means a basic G chord, but instead of playing the B (the 3rd of the chord) you play a C (4th above the root) so GCD.

Don't know if that's any help? In my own playing I use a mixture of the guitar chords plus the written accompaniment. Hope this helps. If you've any more questions, I'd be glad to try to help.

Whooo Hillsongs rock! What church(s) are you guys from out of interest? Do any of you like Yfriday and Delirious?

Matt

Thanks everyone, and glad that there are people here playing keyboards etc too!

JohnS: I am playing mostly chordal accompaniment for both praise songs and worship songs. And we try to sing the songs following the albums that has those songs. Yes, I admit all the rhythms are tricky! I do listen to what the drum and guitars are playing so that I can catch up the rhythm. But, if the guitars as missing, that I'll have quite a hard time trying to play everything on the keyboard (i.e., guitar and bass). But the problem is, sometimes I am messing up their rhythm, especially in praise songs. Is there a particular pattern to play certain songs? I ever read from internet that there are actually only 5 patterns to play 'all' the songs, but it doesn't mention what are they.

Chocolatedog: Mine is not like Hillsong either, just sometimes singing the Hillsongs. Yes, I can read the guitar chords written above the lyrics, just sometimes I have to figure out chords which are not familiar note by note during practice times.


I only use the guitar chords, but there is no written accompaniment for me??! I only play looking at the lyrics and the chords on top of them! I guess the problem for me is to play the rhythm correctly and to learn how to blend the accompaniment style

bassmadmatt: Yfriday and Delirious? Haven't heard of.

I love YFriday and Delirious. I've seen Yfriday live they were fantastic? Is anyone going to Frenzy in Edinburgh in June (I think) Lots of good Christian bands going to be there!

Hi,

Just confirming what's been said about playing from the chords. And with continued use, you can adapt to the situation and the worship time (sounds like you realize this). Songwriters generally only are concerned for worship leaders to keep to the correct words (other than spontaneous additions etc), melody, timing of the melody, chords and overall style. The accompaniment is generally presented as an adaptable item.

Cool

I've seen Delirious a few times, even met them once, and YFriday twice. Had a friend who went to the same church as YFriday and knew them really well, and another who shared a house with a guy from the band for a year! Both good bands.

Just a vaguely on-topic question: do you find Christian music in modern, popular genre to be better than non-Christian music in that style and/or Christian music in more traditional styles?

It varies HUGELY. There are some excellent Christian bands out there and some really quite bad ones who would not ever get signed outside the Christian "bubble". Probably the general standard isn't as good at least in terms of production values just because the money isn't there so much. However, some of the talent, especially songwriting talent, is genuinely outstanding; I suppose with lyrics it helps to an extent that people are writing about deeper things than "I really fancy this chick..."! Particular bands stand out as being very very good and would compete with the secular stuff easily, but the general standard probably isn't as high.

Modern vs traditional, it just depends on the song; there are some really beautiful and meaningful modern songs and hymns - for example In Christ Alone which has a beautiful tune and words which will, I believe, stand the test of time. And then there are some really dreadful ones! On balance I suspect the oldies would have the edge, but that I think is more because only the best (usually!) have survived, so we have the cream of the crop. Some of the old ones available in the older and ultra-traditional books (like Hymns Ancient and Prehistoric) are wonderful, some of them are just as banal and considerably less tuneful than the worst of the modern bunch.

Don't know if I made any sense... and don't know if everyone would agree with me... but that's what I think.

OK, that makes sense .

My only exposure to Christian popular music is through the South Park episode entitled 'Christian Rock Hard' .

I prefer traditional Christian hymns than the "jollied up" pop tunes. They have for me a greater mood of worship, that was-is important to me for reasons I don't know. Some sects of the Christian Church go in for guitars and percussion and try to imitate rock songs. If this as their congregational preference, so be it.

On the topic I'd like if someone could describe what the Charasmatic Church is. And what makes it different from the more traditional Anglican church. Thanks for that.

B

I'm only guessing, but I'd think that probably isn't a terribly typical example....


We have quite a mixture at church, from the best of the old hymns to the best of the new ones. We do have drums and guitars but don't sound terribly like a rock group

I think some of the new songs and hymns are very worshipful, but some of them aren't very good too! It does also depend what style of music you enjoy: there is a huge variety in modern worship music.


Should be Charismatic, really. Comes from the greek word kharisma meaning favour or divine gift, not in the sense that we use charisma in modern English, but closer to the other word we made from the same source, charity.

Charismatic churches emphasise the gifts of the spirit, often especially the more spectacular ones such as tongues or healing, baptism of the spirit etc. Though probably a lot of people now use it more to mean "this church has lively music in its worship and the people raise their hands or even dance to the music". Many churches which may not be characterised as "Charismatic" nonetheless believe in the gifts of the spirit.

There are good and bad in both. An ideal is to mix the best from both - which can be done - I saw it done superbly by the worship band in my church in Tokyo several years ago.....

Thank you, Sarah.

Some festivals in the Caribbean involve "happy" religious songs and dancing.
B

Yes, that's what we do at church.

curacao: you're welcome

Are a high proportion of forum members Christians?

Just out of interest..

Violinia

There seem to be a fairly high number.

Hi, i play in a group called sing praise - the music we play is very lively - but it is neally always different from what the composer put in the book - the rhythms are often change for ease of playing/singing

Sometimes I wonder if it is the composer that composed wrongly if a congregation sings either melodically or rhythmically different to what he/she intended.

What do you think?

Founder of Miserable Old Gits club hat on:

Some of the stuff written in the last 30 years is fine. It's the other 98% that's the problem.

Much of it is so boring that if it didn't have incredibly complex rhythms everyone would just go to sleep. Since everyone simplifies the rhythms anyway because you'd never ever get a congregation to sing them, the boredom factor just increases (notable exception "Jesus is king" which is GREAT as a straightforward hymn so why in the world is it written with those syncopations which no-one ever does anyway?)

Some of the stuff that actually WAS good got dropped along the way presumably because it's not got enough "me me me" theology in it.

Now what i REALLY object to is updated words - not because I am KJVO or anything like that but because invariably the theology is watered down as soon as the words get updated. No longer are we able to remind this poor sinner that he is vile, now he has just lost his way. No longer can we talk about prisoners in bondage to Satan, now it's just a matter of needing to be released from guilt and shame. No longer may we talk about the spotless Lamb of God, our congregations cannot POSSIBLY be expected to grasp such a concept, now it's just "sinless Son of God" which of course is also true but misses all the passover imagery.

It's only going to get worse of course - 20 years from now there won't be anyone anywhere singing proper hymns, but I guess that won't matter because by then I will probably be in jail for intolerance - the only sin anyone acknowledges these days.

Liz

A lot of those awkward rhythms look as though they were notated via a keyboard into some music software package and then not tidied up.....
Some are ok when you have then with a decent band but for a smallish congregation with only organ or piano they don't work so well.
And some of the melodies are so unpredictable that you'd need a few weeks rehearsal before anyone actually KNEW the tune..
And yes, the indiscriminate changing of words is annoying.... apart form 'watering down the theology', as elidatrading says it also tends to butcher the poetry.

So without mentioning names, obviously (confidentiality and all that) - what proportion of regular posters do you think are (practising) Christians?

Violinia

There was a thread here on the topic.

There do seem to be a higher-than-average proportion of practising Christians on the forums: perhaps due to the link between church and music; perhaps due to a reasonable overlap in demographics between those who have an interest in classical music and those who are actively religious.

One must remember, of course, in a discussion about modern church music that there are a good many atheist church musicians.

I was at a music practice tonight for a service in 10 days time. Music copies of 1 hymn -"We are marching" had been given to the pianist, me & the choir. The pianist hadn't heard it before so I played the beginning to give an idea of tempo & off we went. We got into the 2nd half & it was immediately obvious to me that the choir were singing what they were used to singing which bore no resemblance at all to the music we'd been given. The pianist (obviously as she didn't know any version of it) didn't have a clue what was going on. Eventually managed to find the version that the choir intended singing no matter what the music said!!

Often singing alto in church I find that, although I am singing what is written, the other 2 altos are doing their own version - usually the comment is " Oh we sing it like this because it's easier".

I was one of them and proud of it!

I enjoyed watching people gain strength from religion, it was great to be a part of - and I liked playing bass - but it really isn't my cup of tea. It's when they start hugging and kissing people in the aisles and shaking hands with random people saying "peace be with you" it just doesn't go down well with me. I don't know how people can really *mean* it when they're saying it to so many people, not knowing indivudul circumstances and so forth.

Without wishing in any way to cause offense; just because you don't understand it, or "don't know how people can really mean it", doesn't mean that it isn't sincere.

My church is not an especially huggy-kissy church, but still I may well hug or shake hands with people I don't know that well, wish them peace or promise my prayers, and absolutely mean it.

There are people with whom I have had very little contact with in my church who, in times of need, I have been able to comfort in small ways, been able to reach out to, and there has been nothing whatsoever false about it. In the same way people who know me only a little have been of great comfort to me in difficult times. The fact that, humanly speaking, we may not know each other terribly well is only a part (and not even the most important part) of the story.

There is a kinship among Christians which doesn't necessarily correlate completely with how well they know each other... the real meaning of fellowship So while I'm not saying that 100% of the huggy-kissiness you may have seen is genuine - how could I know, as I have never attended that church! - I would definitely go so far as to suggest that you shouldn't assume it's not, either

Hypocrisy is, sadly, far too common in church as it is outside church, and I cannot and would not want to excuse it, but that doesn't mean that one can assume that it's completely overriding and that nothing you see is genuine. I can assure you, that is not the case

On the matter of timing, and songs getting "simplified" -

One of the biggest challenges to christian songwriters today is to write the timing so that it reflects what it would become through repeated use in fellowship singing. Now there's something to find!

Also, some of the timing is very complex in its original form from the songwriter, maybe in a desire to be contemporary - but ending up reflecting contemporary solo songs, rather than contemporary group songs that one just goes along somewhere, sings a few times, and then can just get on singing / worshipping using them. I think that's what's going on. There are some excellent much used modern songs that do achieve this, and they sound contemporary nonetheless.

Is that The Women's World Day of Prayer service?
We are the host church in our town this year.... still chasing up one of the tunes from one of the other churches. I keep on reminding our minister.

Think I will be tweaking 'We are marching' a bit too....

Wow, wish I'd found this thread soon, I could talk for hours about Christian music. Being a church organist I get to play a LOT of traditional hymns which I adore, surprisingly. I also play in bands for church/youth church and go to a very huge and very modern church in Winchester which is amazing. I love bands such as Delirious and songwriters like Matt Redman and Tim Hughes. I think that a lot of the modern songs written can be a bit too insincere and love songish, which I sometimes find a teeny bit disrespectful and overfamiliar. That's why I love having a good mixture of contemporary and old hymns. I find the old hymns more "reverent" as such.
Sarah x

Some of my favourite Christian music is 'modern'- but I agree that not all modern Christian music is terribly good! Delirious? I love, and Matt Redman and Tim Hughes are also fabby... Oh yeah, and Third Day. Not all of it is actually suitable for use in worship, I don't think- for example, the Delirious? song 'History Maker'- fab Christian song, but not a worship song!
I also love older hymns though- How Great Thou Art and Be Thou my Vision among the current faves!
I sing in a praise band at my church, and we do quite a mixture of modern and more traditional stuff, although we do have 2 services targetted to different groups- so the service I am at has a more modern slant and the later one is organ based and traditional

Can I ask, is the reason that you like christian bands because they are christian bands and have the spiritual message behind them or because they write decent tunes?

Both: lyrics and music are both important to me. That's the same for me with secular music as well, though, I much prefer bands who have meaningful lyrics as well as good tunes.

I'm playing for that since it's at our church this year. Might have thought twice if I'd realised that ridiculous "days of Elijah" song was on the programme.

Liz

Uh-oh, is it tricky?
I'm still waiting on the music for that one...
I have to arrange a reahearsal too as we are having a soloist fot Such Love.
I love the Amen thing at the end...

No idea, I haven't looked at the music for it yet. As I recall, it's a typical new song with vast numbers of repeated notes. It's the words i object to.

Liz

Yes - that's the service I've been asked to play for. It was in our church last year -& I was asked to play - "Christ be our light" had a flute part. The host church this year is tiny & doesn't have a choir & I was asked to play again (don't know why- maybe I'm the only person who will !).
Not keen on "These are the days of Elijah" - I got bored with the melody & improvised a harmony to make it more interesting
Such love is nice

'Christ be our Light' was chosen last year by one of the churches for or town songs of praise service.
We were hosts for that and i managed to persuade one of the youngsters to play the descant on clarinet.. it worked very well.

I'm playing at the WWDP too.

This year we're at the Catholic church & I'll be doing a double act with the organist. He/she will do the 4 hymns & I'm imported to take my keyboard & do the others.

"Days of Elijah" isn't that new - it's 1996, which by the way, can also be found in "Songs of Fellowship" Book 2, number 1047.
Important rhythmic point: those semiquavers at the end of the 4th beats, anticipate the chord change on the 1st beat of the next bar - gives a strong intro especially if there's no drummer.
It's a bold song, quite lively & sung with gusto. Not at all slow!

Kathy

Most definitely a mixture of the two. Songs with poignant lyrics and a good message instead of being all about angst and love (gross generalisation) are much more motivational to listen too. A great stress reliever as well. They are often doing it solely for the music and not money as they dont get paid as much as mainstream secular bands.
Sarah xxx

Yeah I agree with you Sarah, I like the uplifting lyrics of Christian bands, e.g. yfriday, Delirious, Switchfoot. Even if you're not a Christian it still makes a change from the monotonous secular songs which are so rarely positive. Having said that though, I still like secular music a lot.

Matt

Ok... Finally got my hands on Days of Elijah.....

Think I will cheat a bit and get hold of the tape.
I don't like those unreadable rhythms...
Things like that are so difficult to count and play at the same time.