I was just thinking about the greater note spacing of the double bass, and the greater weight presumably required to draw a sound from the strings when bowed. For those reasons I would anticipate a given piece of music would simply be harder to play on the double bass than the cello. I wondered what compensations are given to the bass player in terms of making their scores less full of notes than the equivalent scores for their cello playing colleagues. I was interested to note when having a quick look at some orchestral scores on bravobis, that at least in the scores I looked at there is one line marked "cellos and basses", and the basses have to play exactly the same notes as the cellos (albeit an octave lower), including the same fast runs and the same spread of notes.

Is there any compensating feature, or is being an orchestral double bass player just incredibly difficult?

On a different question, how significant is the difference between 3/4 and full size double basses? If equated to the diffence between a 3/4 or full size violin, the difference would be colossal, yet I have read in a few places that so many people play a 3/4 bass that it is almost viewed as the norm. Is that the case in professional orchestras? How much difference is there in the sound?

I am beginning to wonder if the rich deep sound I have always associated with an orchestra's cello section is in fact a combined sound of cellos and double basses, and that cellos alone are very often sounding more in the mid range of notes.

Why the sudden interest? Pipe dreaming about a 3/4 Gliga Gems I double bass reduced to little more than £1000 on the violinslover site!

Hi Zoda!

I've injured my shoulder and as a result can't play violin or viola. I am seriously thinking of switching to bass. I mentioned this light heartedly at the last concert and said "how long do you think it would take me to get up to standard for this orchestra" and one of the first violinists quipped "three weeks" - the point being that double bass parts in orchestras are MUCH easier than cello parts. This is very obvious at any orchestral concert.

I have never met anyone who plays a 4/4 bass. There are apparently a few who play 7/8 but 4/4 is unheard of.

At the risk of sounding self-serving, i will draw your attention to one or two little problems with obtaining a £1000 bass from violinslover (I can't see any on his site below $2125): double basses are too big to come through the normal postal system, they come by air freight. You'll have to pick the bass up from manchester airport (unless you want to pay double the shipping cost for DHL to deliver to your door - no kidding, it was more for them to take it from manchester to Huddersfield than for it to be sent by DHL from Romania to Manchester!) and you will pay VAT on the total price including shipping - DHL UPS and the like never ever get it through free - plus £40 to someone to get it through customs since they won't let you take it through yourself (!). It will almost certainly be sent direct from Romania but with Cristian Gliga's price on it. Bottom line is if it's the $2125 one you're after, you're going to end up paying nearly £1800 for it - but that is still less than our price on them so don't let me put you off getting a bargain!

At one stage I looked into the possibility of hiring a large van and actually driving to romania to pick up basses in person but in the end after hiring the van and paying to stay in a hotle, petrol etc, it would only have saved about £80 per instrument - even a large van won't take many of them. Still it would make it effectively a free holiday I guess - except we'd have to find somewhere to store them this end! We had to accept in the end that for "cheap" basses at least we probably can't compete with Stentor's Zellers - yet. On the other hand the shipping cost is exactly the same for a Gama as for a genial laminated so once you go up that high it becomes a much more realisitc prospect.

I was surprised to see that all the basses Cristian has up at the moment have violin corners. We've only ever had one bass but I think it had Gamba corners. How strange!

Liz

Is that a permanent not being able to play, Liz? Do hope not!

Gamba corners - are those where the top of the bass curves down from the neck rather than jutting out? Presumably violin corners are just that, like a large violin?

zoda: AmandaL plays cello and has been having a go at bass with the aim of doing the grade 1 challenge, she might be able to give you an idea of comparison. I have a funny feeling that pieces that appear both on bass and cello syllabi tend to be higher in the bass, suggesting the same piece is more difficult to play on it.

It must be amazing to make that huge sound, although transport must be a pain...

Composers vary. In the Baroque and most of the Classical periods, 'cello and bass got the same parts, as you have seen, but the bass would not necessarily have played in all the movements that the 'cello did. Mozart actually wrote an independent part for bass in the last movement of his Symphony 41 and Beethoven often writes short passages where the two parts separate. Later, 'cello parts became more technically demanding, and composers eventually started thinking of the two sections as mostly independent. Even so, some bass parts double technically demanding 'cello parts, and not only are they more difficult because of the more frequent shifts, they are also appreciably harder work. I tend to feel it most in my right thumb. If you play twentieth century music, you will eventually hit one of those bass parts where the composer was writing for a section of competent professional players. The scherzo of Shostakovich 10 has a fiendish exposed bit which is played by the bass section with no help from elsewhere; and my recollection of the Nielsen Sinfonia Espansiva (not a fond one) is that from a distance, the violin and bass parts looked equally black.

The compensation for the amateur bass player is that every orchestra needs basses (ideally something like 2/3 the number of 'cellos) and very few have enough, so once you know enough to stay in the right place, play the bits you can (preferably in tune), fake the bits you can't and not play any dominos, you will be welcome somewhere. Also, as a rare capture, you will be treated well, and minor peccadillos will probably be tolerated.

The professional scene used to be similar. There was once a saying, "If you can hold a bass, you can make a living; if you can play the bass, you can make a fortune." However, this is no longer true: bass students are now well taught, practise hard, and graduate to provide the professional orchestras with sections where each member can play everything that is put in front of him, or very nearly.

Hi Liz,

it really is more of a pipe dream, which is why I could make my dream better by thinking "not much more than £1000", which I did by saying it's about $2000 dollars and dividing it by two. You're calculation once you use the proper exchange rate and add VAT and shipping sounds more realistic, but since I'm not going to get it I was able to discount those bits!

It's just that the fun orchestra I play viola in has no double basses at all, whilst it now has two good viola players plus me, so I though wouldn't it be cool to learn double bass (and, yes, to have another Gliga! ). The only thing is I'm not sure if I'd have room in my cardboard box for a double bass when me wife slung me out for buying another one (just bid £300 on a maestro violin and luckily lost.... gligaholics anonymous beckons...)


Interesting what you were saying about much easier double bass parts - the score I looked at was for Beethoven's 1st symphony, and the cello and double bass parts were identical apart from being an octave apart. Maybe later composers began to differentiate more?

If you do get a double bass you know you can't play it under your chin don't you ?????? otherwise that whole "easing the pain in your shoulder" plan might not work so well

I have a 7/8 and occasionally meet players with slightly larger instruments.

Thanks for that great reply, Kenm! I was hoping you would pop up with a few words of wisdom

No, but it's a frozen shoulder - expected to go on for at least a year probably longer


correct


You're joking?! What are you trying to do, Amanda, prove that it's possible to get 150???? I found a double bass in the school music cupboard once, put myself straight in for grade five, same term, on minimal practice (but I did do some) and passed quite well, and I only played the cello to about grade three level. make Amanda do grade 8 to make it fair!!!!

Liz




O no, you mustn't let me put you off!!!


Do you want a really cheap Chinese one? We're expecting a sample from (name censored). Bottom of the range. It won't be a Gliga of course and putting decent strings on it would probably double the cost .... I was thinking of practising on it for a while, but if I'm actually going to go along to an orchestra with one it will have to be a Gliga won't it, that way I can convince my husband that it's a sales technique He can't complain, he's getting a dirt cheap French horn from the same source because he's always wanted to play one. personally i don't think he'll last a week but don't tell him i said so




I think so. I HOPE so!!!!!


I asked for that

Seriously we have located a source of 1/16 size cellos - back length 16 inches. Next order ... watch this space


However big IS a 4/4, ken?

Don't know why it ran those three replies in together.

Four now. what IS GOING ON?

I think it automatically joins posts by the same person together if they're close enough in time and no one else posts in between.

Really? How bizarre

Liz

It's happened since the revamp, it confused me for a while!

Ooooo, I've been missing some fun here - that's what you get when you spend too many hours working.

Errrr, to be honest I've not actaully looked at many of the pieces in the higher grades for double-bass, but those I have seen do tend to require use of the higher positions most of the time. I think it's probably because they are solo parts as opposed to orchestral parts. An example is the double-bass solo opening to the 3rd movement of Mahler 1.

Knowing my luck I'd get an examiner that would give me 149, just to be awkward.

well maybe I'll split the difference and think about grade 5. There's also a double-bass favourite in that grade - The Elephant from Saint-Saens Carnival of the Animals. It doesn't sound as good on the cello, it needs a bass to do it justice.

In all honesty, the biggest issue in bass playing appears to be building up the stamina to play for long periods of time. The right arm gets really tired at first. I've spoken with a couple of the extras that the LSO bring in - both of them are women about my size (5' 1") - and they said that regular practice is the only way to build agility in the left hand and strength in the right arm. Apparently it's better to play seated on a stool than it is to play standing.

I did that one! I guess double bass is a bit like viola - they have to build an entire grades and diploma syllabus out of about 30 pieces


I did my exam standing, but i've never seen any orchestral player standing.

Liz

I don't really know. I only know mine is a 7/8 because the person from whom I bought my case (he deals in basses) told me so.

I sit on a stool that I made. It has a built in spike holder connected by a hinge, so floors are protected and all forces are internal (that means there is no tendency for me to move backwards).

I'd love to learn bass just to be able to play that *grin* excellent piece!

ha ha - that reminds me of that old Skoda joke (before they won "What Car" about 15 times in a row) - how can you double your Skoda's value? take it to the petrol station and fill the tank up

Your question makes me realise the mystical pull that Gligas have on me - the cheap Chinese instrument would probably be a viable option but it just doesn't have the same "pipe dream" quality. There is already in fact a very decrepit looking (and sounding) double bass available for general consumption leaning against the wall where my orchestra practises - I plucked a few notes on it and could not really imagine disappearing into my shed with it for hour after hour like Eddie the Eagle just to get myself able to draw the kind of sound it seemed capable of. In this regard I'm all for cheating and quick fixes - at least in my imagination, that Gliga double bass would sound chocolatey dark, big and round from the very first beginner note.......



Yeah - pesky examiners - they were always doing that to me........ NOT

If I ever get one ... I'll let you know

Liz

I bet you could get a good deal on that Gems I Liz with your connections! In fact Gliga ought to award it to you for free for all the free advice you give his customers on 8notes forum!

The fact they've slashed the price in half seems to suggest they're keen to make room. (Then again maybe he sold it two years ago and hasn't updated the site yet )

Too right But let's face it, if I was buying a bass for myself I'd probably want a five string Gama if I could get one. No point in doing things by halves and I could surely persuade David that it was an investment ... I guess I'd better practice the Chinese cheapie for a few weeks before I go down that road or I will be unpopular

Of course I could just send an order without telling him, and then he would know nothing about it until the bass was on the way, but if I did that I think you'd probably hear the row that would follow, even in Cheshire


Actually he does seem to keep it fairly well updated. I know that because one of the artistic violins that was up there a couple of weeks ago was bought by us (a lot of the stuff he lists is actually in Romania) and it has been removed from his site.

Liz

Couldn't agree more. Not sure whether I'd benefit from a five string bass (the fingerboard must be pretty wide for a start!!), I definitely need something better than the Stentor I'm hiring - it has that 'student look' to it and although it sounds sort of ok on its own - with Obligato strings - I just know it would sound duff played next to a Gliga bass.

Persuade me Liz........go on

Obligato strings for a bass? I was going to say "Ouch!!!" but on looking at the prices it seems a set of obligato bass strings costs less than a set of Obligato cello strings???!!!!

But Amanda, with your ability, don't you think you should be buying Olivs? A mere £350 or so a set

Liz

An absolute snip, I'll take three sets at that price! (Perhaps on a £60,000 Panormo bass, but not a Stentor )

I know. Weird isn't it

Anyway, are you going to persuade me into a Gliga bass? or with all the shipping etc. is it an area of Gilgas' you'd rather avoid?

I think I might pay The Contrabass Shoppe in London a visit. Their cheaper instruments don't get listed on their website.

No no, get a Gliga!!!!!

(totally unbiased opinion from non-bassist)