I am currently a pianist (grade 8) and guitarist (grade 5) - because of this I've never played in an orchestra and group ensembles are a rare occurrence for me (especially because of my poor sight reading).
So I have decided to learn a new instrument, with the hope that by sometime next year I'll be good enough to play in the uni orchestra.........was just wondering people's thjoughts on how quickly an instrument can be learnt to say grade 4 or 5 standard?
I really like the idea of learning a woodwind instrument, I enjoy the sound of that pretty much all of them make particularly the clarinet........
without wanting to sound derogatory towards any flautists, but I'm sure I've read before that the flute is quite an easy instrument to pick up and progress fairly quickly on - is this true?

I've heard flute and violin are quite easy to get to G4/5 standard. One of my mum's friend's daughter learnt flute to G3 in 6 months for Project Trident. And there was a past thread about learning violin to G8 in a year.

One of my friends is at G4 and apparently its gets easier as go. Its begining thats the most difficult. Its almost impossible to make a sound beside a strangled duck at first. I got VERY annoyed(im very impatient). I did manage to get a decent sound in the end.

Do you mean next academic year or next actual year?

Ive recently aquired a flute and i learnt the C major scale within a day. You also need good teeth though...

Regards, HK x

if by the strangled duck sound you are referring to learning the violin, then i can see (or rather hear) what you mean - this has put me off ever learning a stringed instrument. G8 in a year I find hard to believe though - hats off to anyone who can do that (I was also under the impression that the violin was quite hard to learn)
I meant nxt academic year for learning an instrument.........
...........good teeth for the flute? what like, no buck teeth??!!!

My friend got to grade 5 oboe within about a year and a half; but she already played the flute to a high standard. and Another of my friends has got to grade 3 bassoon within 4 months; but she already played the clarinet. My friends brother who I play the oboe with at orchestra picked up the oboe to quite a good standard within a few months, but he was already about grade 7 saxaphone.

Sorry I'm not being very helpful am I Sorry!!! lol

Oops sorry i meant the strangled duck on clarinet!! I must have accidently deleted that part. I meant you get he sound at first when trying to make a sound (well i did anyway - very frightening)

Every instrument has their easy and difficult aspects, so I don't think you can really say that one instrument is easier than another. If you want to play in the university orchestra, where are the vacancies? Most orchestras have a waiting list for flute and clarinet, but if you took up either a rarer instrument or a string instrument you'd probably find you had more chance of getting into the orchestra.

If you're just looking to make music with other people, sing! Most choirs are always on the lookout for new members, and singing is a very sociable activity.

Very good point!

Flute is easy to be reasonable on, hard to be good on, and VERY popular! If your uni orchestra is even vaguely good then they will have grade 8 plus flautists knocking the doors down.

Depends on the orchestra, but it depends if it's a good symphony orchestra and auditions etc, or if it's an allcomers' group.

Flute are generally in generous supply, and to get good enough to be in a decent orchestra will take a long time unless you have an awful lot of natural talent... ditto clarinets.

Wind players generally need a far higher standard to get in than strings, as there are more strings needed and fewer solo slots... the wind players in a symphony orchestra (even a small and not that good one) will have exposed parts and solos, whereas as a violinist, violist, or cellist, only the section leader or possibly the front desk will likely get anywhere near a solo line (and that will only be in occasional works)

For example, in the county groups I played in when I was at school, one was G5 plus to get a string audition, but grade 6-7 for wind and brass. Another expected grade 7 on violin but was fairly flexible, whereas both the flautists were extremely talented and well past G8 standard. It's much easier to hide in a strong string section and not be noticed if you can't get all the notes: a flautist or other wind player will stick out like a sore thumb if they're always missing entries.

On the other hand... at uni only the best violinists even bothered to audition for the uni symphony orchestras, whereas a friend of mine, admittedly a very fine post G8 bassoonist, was begged to play for all 3 years - because there was a huge shortage of bassoonists. Playing a rare instrument can get your foot in a lot of doors!

If you want to be able to get into a good orchestra then you need to be playing, and preferably playing well, an instrument which the orchestra is short of. That depends on the orchestra, but things like violas, horns, bassoons, sometimes oboists, are often in short supply. Do a bit of research and find out what they need. Out of those, I would suggest horns are *probably* the most difficult, between the others it depends very much on how you take to them. Oboe and bassoon are both generally held to be difficult (bassoon possibly slightly more so, but it depends who you ask) which is why people who play them well are snapped up, and viola is just considered unpopular and for people who can't play the violin (not true, but that is often thought). Oboe and bassoon (esp bassoon I believe) have tuning difficulties and are challenging for breathing, viola poses intonation challenges and learning to bow well is not at all easy.

Even if you were exceptional at a common instrument, you would still be competing for places against others who had been playing for longer and had more experience.

If it's an allcomers' orchestra then you will have a wider choice, but bear in mind that the very reasons you list for thinking about taking up the flute mean there are usually many flautists of grade 4-6 level floating around, so you will often either have to compete for places or find yourself as one of 10.

It would be easier to give you advice if you would describe the standard of the orchestra, if there are auditions or recommended standards to be able to cope with the repertoire for certain instruments, if there are shortages of certain instruments, etc etc.

Hope this is making sense, I'm tired. Just bear in mind that the instruments which to you seem to have the reputation for being easy to get good on, also have that reputation with lots of other people. So it might be wiser to find out what instrument would make you rare as hens' teeth and see if you're any good at that instead.

I hear orchestra are always looking for oboists and bassonists; actually I havent just heard it I know it!!! Thats the reason I play the oboe because the music department at my school were looking for one!!

At one point I ended up playing in this big consert in my countys juinior orchestra because the other oboist had gone on holiday. I was only doing grade 2 at the time!!

Friend of mine started bassoon for pretty much the same reason: no bassoonists in school, talented youngster who plays recorders to post grade 8. Unfortunately for the school she turned out to be a natural and went off to Chetham's with a scholarship!!!

Learn viola! It's not too hard and in short supply!

somthing happened like that at my school too. They puruaded a grade 6 flute to play the oboe then she went and got herself a music scholarship at another school so now at my school we have 4 bassoonists but only two oboes,so now they have had to go to primary schools to convince them to start playing the oboe instead of the flute

Obviously more of a natural than I ever was

My son was 6 year old when he wanted to play in an ensemble. He was grade 2 on the piano at the time. He was accepted into the youth bands as a percussionist. He started on tuned percussion and then moved onto all the other orchestral percussion. I encouraged my son to start percussion as he was already a pianist and was on the waiting list for cello lessons which he couldnt have until Year 3. Eventually he started the cello aged 8 and joined an orchestra. He has reached grade 5 on the cello in 16 months so it really depends on how committed you are to your instrument.

He is now 9, a fully fledged percussionist and has started the drum kit lessons too.

I took him a concert over the weekend to watch a piano concerto and after listening to the harpist in the orchestra he decided he quite like to learn that too !! I had to laugh but now I am a little bit scared !!

thankyou for all your responses people

frumpybabes it sounds like you are raising a genius...

sarahflute I have thought a little before about some of the things you mention - I have seriously considered learning the bassoon before as I find it a very interesting instrument to listen to and it is pretty much one of the dying instruments which hardly anyone takes up these days, but the whole double reed thing and breathing difficulties puts me off.........not to mention the price of the things. Concerning my uni orchestra I know that they do audition for entry, although I'm not sure what standard, I shouldn't think harder than G6. Although competent flautists are usually everywhere there are only 4 (albeit 3 very good ones) in our orchestra - so I was hoping I might be in with a chance!

Have you thought about the Brass family? There are shortages of trombonists, tuba players and french horn. The latter is known as a very difficult instrument but you might conquer the others to a reasonable standard if you start now.

Otherwise, despite the cost, I'd encourage bassoon or oboe - so few of those around these days that you'll never want for work!

Best of luck anyway

Try the oboe, I got to G4 in about a year, although I had played clarinet badly in school. It's a great instrument.
I'm currently playing a local Music Centre wind band as the only oboist (a great way of improving my group playing as I don't have a lot of experience). As far as I can tell I'm the only oboe player in town at the moment. Last year I sang in a concert of baroque music with orchestra, the oboists there both came from other towns about 20 miles away.
What I'm trying to say is that there are a lot of opportunities for playing, once you can play well

not a genius, just quite talented and gifted, has a great love for music and is really eager to perform and to learn as much as he can. We cant really keep up with him !!!

I think there may be one salient point that hasn't yet been mentioned. How much practice you are prepared to put in.

Taking a general consensus that it's possible to get to X Grade in X time is fine, but it's also a consensus that assumes you would be really keen to play that particular instrument. While I can see that there is an issue about getting into the uni orchestra, if your sight-reading is bad, you are going to be struggling, whatever instrument you are playing.

At the end of the day the wisest decision is to go with your gut feeling - since you are more likely to choose an instrument you feel suited to and one you will also enjoy playing. By doing this half the battle is won. All that remains is to practice, practice and practice....plus start sight-reading as soon as possible, so that the skill grows at the same pace as your playing ability.

probably not a brass instrument - as getting a good embouchure can take years

double reeds aren't too bad once you get used to the idea of them, plus the bassoon is brilliant... and you say learn it quickly - i got to grade 5 in 9 months not having learned another instrument (progress has stalled now though!) and once you get where to put your fingers and the millions of thumb keys issue then it's not too bad. plus you'll fly into any orchestra - for the orchestra i'm in i completely fluffed my audition but still got in (as principal somehow!). remember, there are only about 1000 bassoon students in britain!

To be honest, even if the general orchestra standard is about grade 6, the flutes are likely to be better because if they are the pick of the bunch...

3 is the highest number you're likely to have in an orchestra: if only 3 people wanted to be in it and two of them are leaving, and no more are likely to arrive, that's one thing, but if these are the 3 best flautists out of lots of auditionees then... well, you do the maths. You have given yourself a year to compete with them - a year in which they will continue getting better.

"there are only 3" would only be good news if the orchestra needed 20 flutes - they don't. Look at a symphony orchestra - they have 2, sometimes 3 flutes max, against a whole horde of string players.

The flute is easy to be *reasonable* on - it is NOT easy to be exceptional on, and how much are you going to practice an instrument that you're playing mainly because you think it's easy? Ask any of the student flautists on this board, to get reasonable is easy, to get over the hump to having really good tone and technical excellence is very hard - and if your orchestra is good, that is what you will need to get in.


Yes, it concerns me that you're thinking of playing the flute mainly because it's "easy"... play something you actually *want* to play!

Whatever you play, you are going to have to do a lot of practice to get to the required standard if your uni orchestra is any good... and you'll have to fight off a bunch of other flautists who have been playing longer, and have more experience in orchestras.

Realistically, you'd be far better off choosing a less popular instrument, or one that the orchestra needs lots of. I really think you need to do a whole lot more research into what instruments your orchestra need, and actually also pick something you like the sound of rather than something that you're picking "because it's easy"...

Can I recommend bassoon? Yes, I know they are pricey, but I got a second-hand one for £1500, and some music centres/schools can lend them.
It is totally wacky! Like you, I'm a grade 8 pianist and a grade 5 guitarist....but bassoon is a different league altogether.
I've been playing not even a year, and I don't think I'm particularly good at it, but I'm already playing in a "junior" (Grades 2-4) wind band, an adult wind-band (Grade 5 +) and I'm even second bassoonist in an (amateur!) orchestra. Realistically I suspect I'm only playing at a Grade 3-4 level, but this is good enough to get ensemble experience when you play a "rare" instrument. And I've never had any ensemble experience on piano or guitar apart from accompanying people!

My bassoon is now my best friend! There is NOTHING ON EARTH quite like sitting at the back of an orchestra, contibuting to the final cadence on the lowest note possible on the bassoon at full volume! MAGIC!!

Double Bass.

Always in demand, not too noticeable if you're rubbish.
I got to grade 4 within 6 months. Clerly it can't be that tricky. Oh and vibrato/style are pretty unimportant

My friend from school would like to play an instrument in our school orchestra, but dosn't know what to play. He would like to get to a fair standard quite quickly. He used to play the clarinet, but he gave up after a year (he was about grade 2 standard)
I reccomended he should play the oboe but his older brother plays the oboe in our orchestra and unless we want a fight breaking out every two minites it would be an awful idea

Do you think he should go back to clarinet or should he start somthing new?

I don't think people can recommend an instrument to learn quickly. It depends hugely on the individual. Even though people think the flute is 'easy', some people can't get a note out of it, or would find it hugely demanding. Although it helps to be fluent in another instrument, progress might not be as quick on a second instrument as one would hope. It depends where one's strengths and weaknesses lie.

If you want to do wind instruments then I'd say flute is a bit easier than clarinet (I've played both, although I'm majoring on clarinet) or at least it was easier for me to pick up, of course I had been playing clarinet for a while before so that may have helped.

Anyway though! On the flute there are WAAY less alternate fingerings and clarinet also (I believe) has a larger range so still more fingerings to learn. The downside about the flute, over here anyway, is it's <i>really</i> popular and <i>really</i> competitive, as far as that goes clarinet is easier (although still a bit competitive)

Anyway good luck!

Yep, the flute is REALLY competitive. In our county bands and orchestras we have about 30 flute spaces, and last year over a 100 flutes auditioned for these spaces.

I've been thinking about this. I agree with AmandaL, you've got to go with your gut feeling, with what you really want to do. If you're going to play in an orchestra you'll have to do a lot of practice, and it seems to me that you'll easily be discouraged if you really don't like the instrument that you've chosen.
I played the clarinet through Secondary Schoool and really didn't enjoy it...and in four years I could only manage to get G3...not motivated to practice.
BUT...
I love my oboe and I'm enjoying the challenge of learning the piano! it's great!

Truetruetruetrue. I think that's the best answer for this. Thinking too much about what's supposedly "easy" is prolly bad - it's not going to be easy at all if you don't like to practice! :-D Find an instrument you like

Depends how big the sound is. The double-bass I've chosen would make me stick out like a sore thumb if I played it badly



Picked it up two weeks ago and I'm tackling the final movement of Beethoven 9 already. Intonation wobbly from time to time, (but as a violinist I'm a pedant about intonation anyway).

I think as string players already (bohemian and myself), we aren't going to be struggling. The bassist who's teaching me says I've already got a better left hand postion and bowing action than most orchestral pros. It's also an instrument you can take up late and still become good at.

Hmmmm, any extras required in the RPO?........

Surely you're using a little one? I was forced to learn on a 3/4 and I couldn't actually carry it, and I had to STAND on a stool for it....


Maybe I should take it up again... I reckon violinists, violists and cellists will find larger instruments of the same family easier because it's similar, but you don't need to be as perfect with left-hand stuff. With double bass, it seems that you can shove your finger within a 1cm range, and hit the same note, more or less. Try that on a violin and you'll be a couple of tones out...

I've got a 3/4 size bass and it feels fine. Something like a 109 cm back, with violin corners - which make the bouts slightly wider than a viol shaped bass - but the string length is reasonably short, only 103.7 cm. The neck of the instrument is also nice and slim. To play, I sit on a standard kitchen stool of about 74 cm in height. Apparently it's not good to stand while playing, as the bass swings around a lot with the motion of the bow. Sitting on a stool and resting the instrument against your body - with the strings facing slightly the the right - gives better stability and allows far better bowing.

I haven't yet had a problem carrying the instrument, but I made sure I was supplied with a case that had plenty of handles on it to make manouvering through doors and in and out of the car easier.

I'm another vote for double bass. Very few amateur orchestras have enough double basses. The consequence is that the members get used to hearing a bass line, especially in Classical works, dominated by 'cello sound, which is almost certainly not what the composers intended.

If you need to convince the conductor of the desirability of including you as a beginner double bass, quote Robert Russell Bennett (orchestrator of many Broadway musicals and original composer of a few good pieces) in his book "Orchestrally Speaking": "Eight basses are not louder than three basses, just nicer."

The point of this is that lots of string instruments, all playing the same note, in tune, very quietly, make a magical sound that a single instrument cannot.