I am only new here and I have already learned so much from this site. I hope this is the right place to post. I am working away at my theory grades as I want to do piano grade 6/7 within the next year. I have currently gotten to grade 3 theory but am stuck stuck stuck.

I have been having "issues" with scales - I have spent time learing my circle of 5ths but I am stuck on exercise 26 on page 24 of the grade 3 workbook. this is the section where they give you a line of music and ask you what key it is in, then ask you to re-write it - i am very confident at the re-writing bit, it is the working out key sig bit that is giving me a problem.

I know what the flats/sharps are and have written these at the side of the page but as for working out the key, I am stuck. exercise (a) obviously the flats are A and E but how do I make the next step. I thought the key might be E flat with the B notes being naturalised. But how do I tell if this is a major scale or its relative minor?

Example © for instance - I can tell there is F sharp and B flat but is this the key of F major (ie b flat with an f sharp thrown in) or the key of D minor? Similarly with (h) - is this the key of D minor?

Am I missing something fundamental here or has it just not clicked with me yet? I think. I don't see my teacher for 2 weeks because of various things we both have on. I hve spent so much time learning scales and felt I knew them off so well, but when I started into this i have just frozen.

I am also totally paranoid because i am a (very) mature student and I was so hoping to do Grade 4 or 5 theory this June but seem to be struggling a bit at the minute with everything else that is going on (job, children etc etc!!) and i am losing time.

Any help in the right direction is much appreciated.

is there anywhere I can get the answers to the workbook other than my piano teacher (who is fab)?

Thank you, thank you , thank you

> exercise (a) obviously the flats are A and E but how do I make the next step. I thought the key might be
> E flat with the B notes being naturalised

Could this be C minor. The B as leading note will be a natural in the harmonic minor scale rather than flat...

Elizabeth - I haven't got the book in front of me, so help will be limited right now -
but just one thought ...
keep in mind that mixed sharps and flats will often indicate a minor key - your F# and Bb eg sounds very like G minor. A sharp occurring in an example with one or more flats is quite likely to be the sharpened 7th note of the key.

Hi Elizabeth

I haven't got the Grade 3 workbook, but I'll see if I can help from the way you've described the exercises.

The first way I attack any theory is to start with the blimmin' obvious. I always start by thinking about the order in which flats and sharps run: Flats - Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb......; Sharps - F#, C#, G#, D#........etc.

Then I think about the key signatures: Flats - none = Cmajor or Aminor; 1 = Fmaj or Dmin; 2 = Bbmaj or Gmin; 3 = Ebmaj or Cmin.......etc; Sharps - none = Cmaj or Amin; 1= Gmaj or Emin; 2 = Dmaj or Bmin; 3 = Amaj or F#min.....etc.

Once I've got these lists down on a bit of scrap paper I have a look at the music.

In example a you've spotted an Ab and an Eb......so looking at the list of flats, that's the third and second flat notes in the sequence. So chances are we're looking at a key of 3 flats. Which from my keys list is either Eb major or C minor. The clue for telling them apart is to look for the leading note of the scale. If it's Eb major, the leading note is D natural (which doesn't need an accidental), if it's C minor then the leading note is B natural (which would originally have been Bb then a natural accidental added to it). As we have the B natural clue in the music, the answer is that it's in C minor not Eb major.

In example c, please could you check for me whether there's an Eb kicking around as well as the Bb you spotted. I'll tell you why - that F# amongst the flats suggests that it's the leading note for G minor, which from my scales list has two flats, and from my flats list those should be Bb and Eb.

Generally, an unexpected extra sharp out of sequence suggests that this is the leading note for the minor key, so check your lists of sharps, flats and keys to tell you which other accidentals to check for, and you'll probably find your answer.

Hope this helps.

Cheers

Katyjay

Beware though of the melodic minor scale where the Eb would be E natural...

Well spotted, Mr B. Of course that would result in there being no Eb to spot if there is no descending passage. But the F# out of sequence is still the clue that it's G minor.

Looking at relevant page now .....

a) has Eb and Ab plus several Bs which would need to be Bbs if the key were E flat major. There aren't any B flats, so I think it can't be Eb major. B could therefore be a "sharpened" (in this case naturalised) 7th note.

c) mix of flat(s) and sharp often suggests minor key - consider whether the # could be a 7th note.

f) as in a) suggests three flats but there aren't actually any B flats - unlikely to be Eb major.

h) like c) look at the # - I think you came up with the right answer here.


Keep in mind that in a minor key, notes 6 and 7 can vary - so may disguise part of the key signature - an example is what Mr B mentioned in his post.

Just a few clues. Don't lose heart - I think some of these are not straightforward.
Hope this helps

Not got the page in front of me, but as soon as you get a mixture or sharps and flats the key is likely to be minor. Remember this as it make these exercises much easier.

Write a list of every accidental you read and write it by the side of the exercise.

Look to see what note the extract finishes on. It will be in the Tonic Triad of the correct key. E flat, A flat and loads of B naturals suggest c minor to me especially if the piece ends on a C E flat or G

Thank you everyone for replying and so quickly too.

I have great guidance here and can start to see how I will work these out.

I am glad to hear these aren't just as straight forward - was beginning to think I was a very stupid and inadequate 41 year old who knew nothing!!!

Thanks again.

Look to see what note the extract finishes on. It will be in the Tonic Triad of the correct key.

Not always unfortunately in these short extracts. I agree this is useful in the case of a complete piece, (I also get my students to look at the opening of pieces and see if the key is suggested by the first bar or two) but I checked through the examples on pp24-5 and one or two end on part of the tonic triad but quite a few don't.

Hey!

Without seeing the pieces it's hard to tell, but it sounds like you're dealing with C minor and G minor - simply because in both cases we have a sharpened seventh note which we would normally expect to be flat or natural given the other sharps / flats.

Don't lose heart! Just keep working at it and it will click eventually. Check out the final notes, as someone else has suggested - it's not always true that they end on one of the triad notes, but it might confirm your suspicions as to the key.

I'd write down a list of the accidentals and try to make a complete key signature. If you can't do that (i.e. you can't make E flat in your first instance because of the missing Bb) then consider that you might be dealing with a minor key - especially if you have sharps and flats mixed. Once you have done this, if the sharpened note is the seventh degree of the minor scale (or the fifth of the relative major) then you are very likely dealing with the minor key.

Hope this helps!

Allan