I am practising a piece with an alberti bass line, and I can play it reasonably well but not nearly up to speed - I start making fluffs. Unfortunately, the bit that is holding me back is in the LH part, and I can't seem to practise it very much before my hand starts to complain, aching in between the bones especially in my two smallest fingers.

It's very annoying as if it didn't hurt I'm pretty sure I could actually finish the dratted piece...

Any suggestions or helpful hints? What am I doing wrong, or is alberti bass just tough on your LH if you're not very good??

I'm afraid I'm going to have to pull out the old favourite bit of advice here, that seems to apply to hands on the piano and embouchure on flute amongst other thing: you need to relax your hand. How to achieve that is another matter .

I'd suggest focussing on your wrist: from what you describe I'm guessing your hand is locked in place against it. Try gently raising and lowering your wrist whilst playing, slowly; by doing 'something' with your wrist, it'll help prevent the tension from locking it in place in the first place. Keeping your wrist a little more free will help with the span between the outer notes, which should - in turn - take some of the load on your fingers.

Blech. Something tells me you're right - thanks for the suggestions to try and relax it, I thought maybe tension was a problem but never know how to stop being tense - as worrying about it generally doesn't help!

When my hand has stopped feeling like it's been hard done by (it doesn't hurt massively but once it starts to ache it takes ages to go away ) I'll have an experiment and see if that helps.

Thank you

Another alternative is to use rotary action, which takes some of the movement and strain off the fingers and puts it in the forearms instead.

I was going to say that is how my teacher helped me defeat tricky Alberti bass lines. Rotate your forearm to put your little finger down rather than physically moving the finger joint.

Good idea . I have quite a generous span, so I find up-down wrist movements work quite well for me as the tension isn't caused by the stretching; I'll try rotary if (when) I next hit the problem.

Try this link here

Rotaryly,
GC

An Alberti bass sounds so simple, yet it is one of the hardest things for pianists to play quickly.

Most adult piano learners play with terrible hand positions, especially their left hand - tense, crabbed fingers and poor wrist position. I would happily bet a fiver that this is your problem without even seeing you play. The pain comes from tension exhausting your muscles within a very short time, unless you are arthritic - a different problem.

The solution is easy to describe but incredibly time-consuming to carry out and most adults cannot be bothered - they become used to playing with tension and are comfortable with it.

- place your hand on the keyboard, all fingers relaxed and in contact with the keys.
- make sure the muscles of your upper arm are supporting all the weight.
- your elbows, wrists and fingers do only sufficient work to stop your forearm falling off the piano.
- very slowly, you play an alberti pattern. You concentrate on keeping everything in balance - forearm light, wrist flexible.
- use small finger movements to tap the keys. After each note, allow each finger to relax and rest on the surface of the key.

Once you can do this for a long period and maintain the relaxation, you are ready to start increasing speed.

Increasing speed builds up tension, so release it with a slight rotary action in the direction of the finger you are using.

Once you have a decent tempo going and can still remain relaxed, you are ready to make a little more of the melodic potential of the alberti. Gently bring out the first and third notes in each group, to form a very basic but effective counter melody to the right hand.

The question is not whether you can learn to play an alberti bass but whether you have the patience.

Hope this helps

Steve

Thanks chaps and chapesses.

Actually Steve, my piano teacher has often commented that I have good hand position/good touch on the keyboard - as an adult returner (and someone who has a certain amount of LH nimbleness due to violin playing) I don't think I'm guilty of crabby hands.

Tension has only crept in when trying to do a repeated pattern - and only actually since I have been fighting with it, possibly because I couldn't get the blessed thing right. I still haven't entirely conquered my childhood fear of piano lessons, and when I'm having trouble getting the hang of something is usually when it starts to fall apart. I don't think I remember having any problems with it till it got to the finishing stages now I think about it, and the pain arises in the bit that I mess the pattern up in...

CD - I think a sort of rotary action is what my piano teacher suggested earlier and seemed to help (I say I think, because I know I have ended up doing it that way but I can't actually remember my lesson - I'm exhausted and my memory is awful at the moment - but I know he wrote something down and I suspect it's that!! )

Here's guessing you never checked the link out... Oh well

Unlinkingly,
GC

I did! Took me a long time to read it!!! The bit about rotary was nearly at the end!!! The summary 3 sentences were actually the most important bit........

I've read quite a lot of it, and added the link to my favourites for future reference. Thank you, GC.

Thanks for this...I'm pinching these suggestions...trying to get adult pianists to relax is a biggy with me at the moment!!!

Oh, and thanks to GC for that link...interesting!

My pleasure. miochy. Let me know if you ever find out how to get adult pianists to relax; I will pay good money for the info

Steve

Glad to hear it, Sarah, but the pain is not coming from perfectly balanced fingers, hand, wrist and arm.


That is tension, Sarah. Follow my advice and the tension will disappear. Eventually.

Steve

I agree Sarah. Steve's suggestion of relaxing and using rotary motion is very helpful.

I've not quoted all of Steve's reply, but for any others out there struggling like Sarah, it is well worth a read! He explains the techniques in detail including using the upper arm to support the weight.

I'm playing a Chopin Prelude at the moment and gentle reminders of technique are so useful.
What a great thread!

As you can see from the above Sarah, it was one of the many suggestions Steve gave in order to help you. Yes, cd did mention it too.

We're very lucky to have Steve and cd on the forums, but please don't knock Steve...he was trying to help you, and by doing so has probably helped many other pianists with what is quite a common technical problem.

Anyway, good luck...and I'll thank Steve on your behalf.

-- giving up while I am ahead (I'm sure Steve could defend himself if it was necessary, but it isn't )

This could start to get silly, so - thank you all for your help and I'm unsubscribing while the thread still makes some sense.

I've thanked everyone and am grateful for the help I've received. Nuff said.


Thanks CD, I'll check that out. The whole shebang was a bit for me...

These are very kind comments, Mitch - highly appreciated, I promise.

I am not around much on the forums these days as I am ridiculously busy with a hectic schedule of rehearsals, concerts exams and such. Somewhere in amongst all this I also have to fit in my 50 pupils.

On top of that, Gill Johnston (mother of cellist Guy, BBC Young Musician 2000) told Heidi to apply to Chetham's after adjudicating her at a festival a couple of weeks ago. Heidi had a look at the website and fell in love with the school - what a surprise - so we are preparing for a first audition. Chets auditions are two stage processes, the first being heavily biased towards aural. They will test her far beyond anything she can be prepared for but I need to make sure she does not fall at the first hurdle of grade 8 standard exam aural tests. so we are doing an hour a day on this over the holidays.

Now that is something I never expected to say

One final observation re alberti bass. I have yet to meet a pianist who enjoys them or finds them easy. I am sure some do, but they are a minority. I have to concentrate hard on the technique required for them, even though I know how to play them.

Luckily for us, the great composers thought little of this facile device and used it sparingly. It is rare for there to be more than two or three lines of playing. Anybody who feels pain when playing them is doing something badly wrong, technically.

I make the distinction between ache, where unfit muscles are doing unaccustomed work, and pain. Aching muscles are ok - this is simply a case of building up the strength\stamina required. Actual pain is different; this is an indication that something is badly wrong. Trying to play through pain will result in long-term injury.

Piano playing is not supposed to hurt. I have said before, to students on these boards. No doubt I shall say it again. It is a point inexperienced players do not always understand and need to bear in mind all the time.

Steve

What a pleasant young lady

I see grade 4 flute has added to grade 8 clarinet. Going to do them both at the same time to save your accompanist another long drive?

Steve

Well Steve, I meant every word. Sometimes teachers are just not appreciated in the way they should be. Giving advice , when you are so busy at the moment, is a generous thing to do.

It's encouraging to know that most pianists don't find Alberti bass easy. It is so difficult to become a little disheartened when you see great pianists seemingly rattle off pieces with ease.

Oh and lots of luck to Heidi! It would be wonderful for her to go to Chets.
I'm going there in May for the Trinity workshop.