I haven't played the G minor - I'll have to look it out. Unfortunately I've lost the flute part to the first half of my sets of Bach Sonatas so I only have the flute parts to 4-6

It might be worth cheating for the one or two holes that you're really struggling with. Everyone's different, and some people find it easiest to dive straight in, but it does take time to get used to having to ensure all the holes are covered, so in the interim it's not that bad an idea to make it a bit easier on yourself just for a couple of weeks. As your hands adjust, you'll probably find that your better hand position will mean that you start covering those holes anyway, and you won't have to struggle with them while you're adjusting. That's just my 2 cents anyway If you have started by taking them all out, and are struggling with being 100% accurate, then it might be worth trying the slightly shallower learning curve

Yep, the 1st 2 movements of the E major are on the current G8 syllabus, and the 3rd is on G6.

I have only heard myself playing the YB, and I'm not very good at it yet but even with those two hindrances, I like it a lot. The two outer movements are pretty tough though! I think although the middle movement is G8, the two outer ones are considerably harder, won't even be trying them for a long time!

I got my music for the Drei Romanzen today - YAY!

What pieces are you playing at the moment?

I don't think I'll put the plugs in as my finger position has been getting much better . Thanks for the advice though !

Can't wait to get the York Bowen now

At the moment I'm playing :

Valse from Suite de Trois Morceux by Goddard . I really like this piece but I'm finding it hard to chose where to breath on the last page as it's just continuous runs

Gluck Concerto in G first movement

Bach Sonata in B minor Have you played this one ?

And a couple really good studies from "Nine advanced studies for flute " Which are helping with fingering positions . It's a really good book .

Are theory exams held at different times from the practical exams ? Someone told me that they were only held twice a year ?

Julie

I've seen it...

Oooh what's that like?


Nope I'll have to see if it's in either of the books I have - nice piece?

Cool don't know the book.

As far as I know, they are held on one date in each of the examining periods, ie spring summer and autumn, so 3 times a year, I think you may be able to have one on a special visit but I don't know quite how that works.

Does anyone here have a Gemeinhardt?
Is that good or bad?

Sarah-flute get the Gluck Concerto !!! It's nice though there are a few triky bits with articulation . Apart from that it's quite easy but loveeeely to play !

The Bach Sonata in B minor is lovely . I'm only on the first movement just now it .

A special visit for exams ?? I wonder if that means i can sit it at any time during the year .. I'll go find out about that .

Teachers Pet , I have a Gemeinhardt flute but i don't use it . I bought an openhole Gemeinhardt flute to play and see if i liked the openhole style of flute . Though i now have a yamaha openhole . The Gemeinhardt flutes a quite good though ..

Julie x

don't tempt me to buy any more music just at the moment - I'm trying to be good (finances are not great at the moment)

I probably have the B minor in my other Bach book, but I can't find the dratted thing. That's the one I've lost the flute part to unfortunately Oh well!

I am loving the Schumann Romances which arrived this morning - they are gorgeous! I played one of them on my fife earlier on - it doesn't quite have the same effect though

Oh I hate it when you lost the flute part for something and then they turn up later in the most random of places

Schumann Romances .. never played any of them before .. more music that i will need to buy now

You play the fife ? Is it just the same as the flute but made of plastic or something ?

Julie

One of them ^

One of these days I'll record the Romances properly and put them up on the recording site (http://www.forumrecordings.co.uk - did you know about it?) but for the mo you'll just have to take my word that they're great really beautiful (I'm not sure my fife recording would convince you of that...

Yep I've listened to a couple of recordings on the recordings site ... they're all really good ! I'll get round to putting a recording of me on their sometime You have one up of you playing the Siciliano from the Bach Sonata don't you ?

Why did you take up fife ? Are there much differences between the fife and the flute ? Or is it just the diference in sound quality ? :lol sorry for all the questions

Julie x

that's OK

Yep, the Bach Siciliano is me. I did do another one actually, with slightly differing articulation, but never got round to putting that up. Haven't had a mic for a while, so haven't done anything new for months for it.

The sound is different on the fife, and only the C major fingerings are the same - chromatics are naff!

I bought one mainly to use with my flute pupils (I have 2, lol) but neither of them likes it but also so I can have a flute-type thing that's a bit more hardy than my flute, and also something to play when my health isn't so good (which is often) - I can play it in bed or even in the bath, so it keeps my embouchure a bit more "in trim" when I can't play my flute. Plus, it's fun

The recording is very good ! I've got a recording of me playing Madrigal by Gaubert but it was just on a dictaphone lol so the sound quality isn't very good !!

Ooooh you've got pupils ? You must be a really good player then . Sorry to hear about your bad health
Playing the flute ( or fife ) in the bath ? Something i must try sometime ! I'm kinda strange amn't I ?

I think i'd like to try a Folk Flute ( well i think that's what they're called ). They're black and look a bit like the fife .. In fact it might be the same as a fife ? I don't know lol

Julie x

I'm not that good! I enjoy it, though - both teaching and playing. Both my pupils are people who otherwise wouldn't get to have lessons - I'm not really confident enough to advertise myself as a teacher or anything.

I wouldn't play the flute in the bath!! But the fife wouldn't hurt if you dropped it in

Don't worry, I'm a bit odd myself ask anyone!

I'm not sure what the definition of a fife or a folk flute is - basically I think a folk flute probably covers anything without keys. I'm not sure if there's some definite thing that is or isn't a folk flute or fife... and I think baroque flute usually means a flute that has keys but isn't a Boehm flute.

I'd love to hear your recording of the Gaubert, but it wouldn't be allowed to go on the site as he died too recently (for copyright reasons, the person who composed or arranged it has to have died I think it's 50 or more years ago - it does say somewhere on the site...) I did a recording of it for our virtual concert at Christmas, though unfortunately my computer broke before I'd done my final copy so YetAnotherPianist very kindly put the piano part in to the least bad of the recordings I'd sent him!!

I'm glad you enjoyed my Bach

I think i'd like to be a flute teacher at some point .. but not just now as I'm obviously not good enough lol

Yeh .. it'd maybe be better if i didn't play my flute in the bath .. i'd probably drop it in and destroy it

I think a folk flute is the name for anything without keys actually .. as you said !

Do you play piccolo at all ? More random questions

Julie x

No, I don't play picc - I'm afraid I'm not a fan I went on Nicola Mazzanti's site, and I don't even like it when he plays it

I LOVE the alto though, and bass - alto is my favourite though...

& I don't mind random questions

You can have a look at it when you come round. (Honneger). Not promising I'll be able to play it though

Cool

It's really nice though

I'll look forward to it

Oh well i really like the piccolo

I was playing in a music festival last month and there was a flute choir playing the same night as our band :D:D There was so many different types of flute .... there was a shorter type of flute .. it was bigger than the picc but smaller than the normal flute .. didn't know what it was though

I think the bass looks really hard to play due to breath control and i don't think my hands would be big enough to reach the keys

Julie x

A "G"/treble flute ...

i played piano before i started to play flute as well, i started to play flute in January and im starting work on my grade 2 in a couple of weeks! its not hard, i think that its easier that piano!

Sounds like it to me, too - never seen one in real life, think it's an octave above the alto flute.


Each to their own


I think it's quite tough for breath control (long time since I had a go on one!) but as far as I remember the actual keys you use are spaced quite similarly to a normal or at least an alto flute, and there's just more mechanic to get your finger motion to the actual holes. It's been a long time though so I could be completely wrong....

Thank you!!! This was very helpful. You're working on Grade 2 flute in a couple of weeks and you only started it in January!? How long have you been playing the piano for?

Yes, I can't play anything bigger than a treble recorder, and can only just do an octave on the piano, but I can reach the alto flute. It has some key things, like on a sax which means you can reach everything...

WOoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooot !!! I just got my piano exam results i got 115 and i'm so proud of myself ... i hadn't done much practice for it .. due to other auditions and lots of school exams ... so im really happy just now :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Julie xx

Well done

flute is very easy comparing to piano, but once you get more advanced, you will get problems such as:


1."airy" sounds
2.your fingers moving faster than the tongueing of your mouth, or vice versa
3.the fingerings changing weirdly and confusing your brain. (its kinda like playing a weird pattern on the piano when u r used to normal scales or Alberti Bass)
4.your mouth muscles getting tired.
5. running out of breath.

and more. BUT, it WAY easier than piano i have to say.

I have to say, I take exception to that. Flute is very different from piano and presents a totally different ranges of challenges and difficulties, and some (I'm one of them) find it easier than the piano, but just like the piano it is not an easy instrument to play well. NO instrument is easy, and none is universally easier than another.

Well said Sarah! I would never dream of saying x instrument is easier than another because they're all just as hard as each other.

But some instruments are harder than others!!

Otherwise why would the music presented at certain grades be so different!! I can play quite a few grade 8 sax pieces on flute...and find them much harder on sax...and I am a much more competent saxophonist than flute player!

The Bozza Aria to pick an example that is obvious is G7 on both flute and sax.

I have played tunes on the sax without having any lessons - I don't even own one and I'm far from competent. Doesn't mean I can say "the sax is easier than the flute". Friend of mine can play grade 7 and 8 pieces on the sax, he's never had a lesson either. He can't play the flute at all... All instruments present difficulties sooner or later, all of them have their easy and difficult aspects, and every person will find some easier and some more difficult. It depends on one's own talents, one's background, etc etc - e.g. someone with previous wind experience will generally (though not always) have an advantage learning another wind instrument, someone who has already learned to read music will find a new instrument easier in that they don't have to learn the notes, just(!) how to play them, and so on and so forth.

Even if you studied both instruments to a very high level, you would only be able to say "this one is easier for me".

No matter what your say or what anyone says for that matter it will not change my view point on the matter...Some Instruments ARE easier than others

Well you shan't change my view either, because I know too many people with directly opposing experiences than others, and who find opposite instruments easier. I know people who have found "easy" instruments very difficult, and that "difficult" instruments have come naturally to them. I certainly know plenty of people who have found the flute difficult (and those who have found it reasonably easy) as I know both kinds when it comes to sax playing.

Taking your own experience and saying "therefore I KNOW, and no amount of evidence will change my mind"... well... it is hardly a scientific study on the matter and if that is your position (that no matter what anyone - no matter how competent or knowledgeable - says will change your mind) then frankly I don't give tuppence for your unfounded opinion

It's not surprising that people will get defensive when it is suggested their principal instrument is 'easier'. It does seem to me, however, that bassoon is particularly difficult (considerably more so than sax or flute).

Best wishes

barry

Theoretically some instruments are harder! And scientically too!

Blah blah blah blah

P.S. I wasn't saying flute was easy...I find it quite difficult, compared to Saxomoppphhhhooooonnnnneeeeee.

And yet... I know someone who got a scholarship on it to Chetham's about 18 months after she took up the bassoon... and ended up going on to the RAM to study it (she got her LRAM and then had to give up due to insurmountable health problems ) ... personally I think that whether an individual instrument is easy or hard depends on SO MANY factors, including natural talent for the instrument, previous experience, etc, that saying ANY instrument is categorically easier or more difficult than another is quite foolish - there will always be some who prove the statement, but there will always be those who disprove it. One can only truly say "I found X and Y easier than A and B" - beyond yourself and your own experience, there's no finite "this is the most difficult, this is the easiest", even if some instruments such as French horn, oboe, and, yes, bassoon, seem to be generally challenging.

Agree 100% with Sarah.

OK, so some people may find X instrument easier to get a sound out of or what have you, but how much can they really play that instrument e.g play with a beautiful tone etc.

You can never generalise, people are different...

*random bit of knowledge* The Bozza Aria was originally written for sax for a famous saxophonist in 1936 I think

No two instruments are equally easy to learn. The problem comes in how you rank them:

Some people will find the flute easier than the piano, perhaps because there's only one line of music, or your hands don't have to move all over the place, or how hard you press the keys doesn't affect the sound (don't flame me on that). Other people will find the piano easier than the flute, in my case because you don't have to blow into a piano and I don't know of anybody that failed to make a note on the piano the first time they tried! I find the guitar easier than the violin (it has frets). My friend finds the violin easier (fewer strings to worry about).

It all depends on the player.

Having said which, a lot of the things I have written above are no more than excuses to reinforce prejudices, but prejudices with roots in reality: Different people do find different things easier. You try something; it seems easy so it's fun, so you try it again, and again and again, and you get good at it, so it's more fun, so you do it more and so on. You try something else; it seems hard and no fun and you don't enjoy it. You go back to the fun thing. It takes a special kind of masochist to perservere where there is no enjoyment!

Hi Sarah

I'm not sure how much that proves.

Bassoonists are a rare commodity. I bet it's easier to get a scholarship to Chetham's on the bassoon than on flute or piano, if only by virtue of having less competition.

And you may know otherwise but the same girl might have got to the same standard on the flute in 12 months (even if she couldn't get a scholarship because of the competition).

I saw a youth orchestra recently. The violins were all grade 7+, the flutes all grade 8 and the sole bassoonist grade 5. It's expensive to get into, heavy to carry and hard to play. And the fact that some people might have an unusual flair for it which makes it easier for them to play than others, doesn't make it inherently easier.

It's a truism, but all instruments are difficult for people who find them difficult and easy for people who find them easy. Notwithstanding personal aptitude, some do appear to be inherently harder than others and it seems to me that the bassoon is harder than the flute (and I suspect the oboe may be harder than the bassoon).

Best wishes

barry

Not a lot, but then how could we prove any of this except by having everyone in the world learn every instrument and then compare notes?


Well, I don't know - my friend was grade 8 distinction plus after 18 months, I think that may have had something to do with it...


Well, she had been playing the violin and piano for considerably longer and never reached the same dizzy heights on them....


I think the fact that it is expensive carries a lot more of the "where are all the bassoonists" than the fact that it is any more difficult. Most people can get a chance to play a violin, a piano, a flute - they are common, schools and LEAs have a lot of them to loan out. Bassoons are expensive - few parents can afford to buy one on the offchance that their child might take to it - it takes the child to fight for it, or to be offered one for a specific purpose (ie the school needs a bassoonist, and the child appears to be musical, and they found one mouldering at the back of the LEA's storeroom).

You have also failed to take into account that most children are attracted to instruments which are similar in pitch to their voice, which makes bassoon *generally* less attractive to kids - though of course there will always be exceptions. A heavy, expensive instrument (with prohibitively expensive reeds) whose sound many children will not be attracted to. (Even assuming they get to hear the instrument in order to be able to go "oooh, I like that", which few will - I am pretty certain I did not knowingly hear a bassoon till I was at least 12 - certainly not on its own, where I could hear it well enough to decide if I liked it) And you need more reasons for it not to be common? It's hardly surprising that bassoonists who've had good teachers and good instruments and the chance to find out that, actually, they're not half bad at this thing are relatively few and far between. Fewre kids want to have a go - relatively few even of those who do want to, will GET to have a go - and it's a tough call if the family can afford to have a blossoming bassoonist in the family with the cost of instrument and reeds.

The harp is also uncommon: I can tell you for free we had fewer harpists in the county music groups than we did bassoonists. I suspect similar real reasons - expense, lack of teachers, difficulty of transportation - had a lot to do with it, though it isn't easy either (bit like bassoon, and, erm, flute...).


No: So why should an unusual flair for the flute suddenly make IT easy? I never said, and never would say, that the bassoon is easy - I very much doubt it is. My point is, that neither is the flute. No instrument is easy to play well... each instrument will be "differently easy" for each person. But none of them is easy, and none of them is inherently easy for everyone - or inherently difficult. I know people, as I have said, who have struggled with supposedly easy instruments, and those who have thrived on supposedly difficult ones (including oboe, French horn, bassoon). And, frankly, I don't buy the labels.


As I have pointed out several times... Everyone has a different set of more and less difficult instruments, because we aren't clones. Simple as that. Everyone will rank them differently. No one can truly say more than "this was difficult for me..."


It seems to you on your huge bassoon and flute playing experience?

Forgive me for remaining unconvinced.

I'm going to go find the ignore button. Pah.

How strange that this endlessly discussed topic once again raises its ugly and dull head - we could try talking about the weather or pushing bits of bamboo under our fingernails if we fancy slightly more fun, I suppose.

We've rehashed this I don't know how many times - the simple fact is that some people find certain instruments easier than others but that is not an absolute quality - just because someone found the flute easier than the piano does not make it so for everyone - nor does the fact that the bassoon is in short supply necessarily have anything to do with how difficult it is. It also seems hilarious to me that someone who does not play the flute or the bassoon would allow themselves the luxury of correcting a woodwind player about the relative difficulties of each instrument...

I tried to play the flute and found it excruciatingly difficult - I couldn't even get a sound out of it and it felt all wrong. I play the piano to diploma level and found that relatively easy - I also found the cello easy, yet I have a plastic fife and several irish whistles that I cannot for the life of me play. That's my experience and it will of course differ from everyone else's experience which in itself proves that claiming the existence of an absolute in terms of instrumental difficulty (particularly based on criteria such as 'well, you don't see many of them, do you?') is as productive as attempting to win a court case by repeatedly saying 'I never done it' in the face of mountains of evidence to the contrary - doesn't matter how hard you keep saying it, it won't be true and you're doin' bird, guvnah.

Allan

Come, come now, Sarah. Don't flounce off in a huff. It's a discussion.

Is a harp harder to play than a triangle? I'd say so. Would you agree?

If not, well, I don't know what to say. And if so, then you agree some instruments are inherently more difficult to play than others.

Please don't mock my own bassoon and flute playing. That's neither here nor there. Berlioz didn't play an instrument but would you pick a fight with him about orchestration? It would be foolish so to do.

Believe me when I say that I have every motivation for claiming the flute as the most difficult of all instruments (my son having just done quite well in his grade 8) but I don't think it is. That's just my opinion. If we restrict the forum to that which is factually correct the message board will dry up.

Best wishes

barry

btw ... what is "grade eight distinction plus" and how is it determined?

Just because the violins/flutes were higher grades, doesn't mean this is because they are easier to play. Facts are that more people play violin/flute thus more competitive, so you have to be higher to get into an orchestra.

Yes, it depends on the needs of the orchestra - you had to be practically diploma standard to play flute in our local youth orchestra - I had done G6 violin and got a place. They'd have killed for a French horn of anything above grade 6 level... they had a full complement of bassoons and oboes... Doesn't tell you anything except what's needed locally at any given time. We had to bring in professionals on some instruments - and the year before, I would not have had a look in on the fiddle, but lots of people left that year.

Yes! Our flutes, well, apart from me, they all did grade 8 about 2 years ago, and are VERY good. I had a friend who was working on grade 6 and got in the violin section.

Grade 8 distinction plus - surely just a higher level than that?

Okay, that's an obvious yes. But then you have to decide what you class as an instrument. A triangle, on its own, can't produce music (unless you think a single note is music). And a percussionist will not be playing only a triangle in a performance. So the real question is: is it inherently harder to play a harp, or play percussion? In which case, I don't think the answer is clear; it depends again on what you find difficult.


Are you comparing your knowledge on instruments' difficulties, to Berlioz's knowledge about orchestration? That's a rather bold claim.

To be honest sarah the french horn is probably harder than the other brass instruments, with the exception of trombone, as I am using the examply of brass instruments! Now it HAS to be harder because the Harmonics are so close together!

Closeness of harmonics are a difficulty/area of technique which must be worked on, but that doesn't automatically make it harder/THE hardest.

What?! How can you say that! If something has an area that is more difficult than the others, and the other instruments don't have that difficulty then how can you possibly make that statement!