My 6-year-old has excellent pitch - close to perfect - but he doesn't understand the concept of notes being higher or lower than each other. I don't think this is a musical thing; it's the definition of the words "higher" and "lower". Is it a developmental thing? For example, if i play three notes on the piano, in the octave above middle c, he can sing them, no matter how awkward the intervals, but he is unable to tell me which was the highest or lowest. I have tried things like, "Which was closest to the top end of the piano?" (where the door is) or the bottom end of the piano, where the window is, but he still only gets it if he's watching my fingers. Having read with interest another thread on teaching young children, I was wondering if any of you can come up with a way of defining "higher and lower"? It's definitely not that he doesn't hear the difference; he can sing his piano pieces in the right key without having been near the piano since the previous day.

I think you're right in that some of this is a developmental thing. To a young child, 'higher' actually means 'taller', it doesn't mean more vibrations per second!

You need to actually connect a physical movement with the vocal pitch. Your son can clearly pitch the various notes easily, he just needs to connect his vocal pitch with a physical movement and the correct vocabulary - all at the same time.

Maybe sing two notes to him (I think it's better initially to use another human voice rather than the piano which has such a different timbre - this can also cause problems) that are a fair distance apart (eg 6th/octave) and put your hand up high or down low appropriately when you sing them. Ask him why you put your hand in different places when you sang. This should - hopefully - elicit the right vocabulary. Then ask him to close his eyes and see if he can show with his hand which of the two pitches it is that you're singing.

Gradually refine this down so that the interval becomes smaller. You can use a variety of movements including touching his head when he hears/sings the higher pitch and his shoulders when he hears/sings the lower pitch.

Play a 'stand up/sit down' game with him. You sing 'stand up' to s-d' (probably A-D' or G-C') and 'sit down' to s-d (A-D or G-C) and he has to do whichever one you sing. Try to catch him out by singing the same one twice or even three times in succession. Then - without warning - sing the next one just with a vocalisation (eg 'doo-doo') instead of the words and see if he will do the correct movement. If he does, then ask him 'How did you know that was a 'stand up' signal?' - which again, hopefully, will elicit the correct vocabulary and you will be able to gauge the level of his understanding.

Sing an ascending major scale and ask him to draw in the air with a 'musical pencil' the direction that your voice is going (again reinforcing the 'higher'/'lower' vocabulary). Do the same with a descending scale. As with the musical signals, play a game where he has to slowly show with his hand - or actually gradually stand up or sit down to whichever direction he hears. Again sometimes repeat the same one so that he doesn't just assume that the next one will be different.

Then tell him that you are going to try to catch him out with one of the tunes you sing. Do the ascending/descending scale game as before - but then sing just on one pitch and see if he notices what you have done (hopefully he will realise that he has to stand still and not move himself higher or lower). If he can describe it as 'you stayed on the same pitch' then that tells you exactly what he is hearing and understanding.

Sing (later, play) two random pitches to him within the octave range that he is comfortable in. He has to sing them back and clap his hands in a high/low position - this again will show if he is understanding the pitch differences that he is hearing and singing.

This idea can then be developed to using three pitches, in which case he would clap in high/middle/low positions as he sings. This is much more difficult!

The ideas I've given are sequential in order of development/difficulty.

As I said, he just needs to connect the sound he hears, the sound he sings, with a physical movement and the appropriate vocabulary. Asking open-ended questions will help you to gauge the level of his understanding.

A further development of all this is to learn solfa and the accompanying handsigns, which refines pitch understanding and facility still further. Please do ask if you want to know more about this.

Good luck and have fun!

My daughter's cello teacher just started playing a game with her where she starts curled up on the floor, and has to rise and stretch up, or drop down, depending on the way her teacher plays the cello (so obviously up for the higher notes, and down for the lower notes). She's four, and she gets this idea (not perfectly, but she follows the basic idea). She can also distinguish cellos from violins when she hears them played, on the basis of one being high and the other low. Perhaps try letting him listen to similar instruments - cello and violin, trumpet and tuba - and hearing the differences.

My son (also aged 6, and also with good pitching and tune recall) often describes things as "Squeakier" and "Growlier" (as in mouse and bear) and he once described a double bass as "Growlier than Growly"

I liked Cyrilla's ideas - I shall try those with him too!

Hazel

Ah - Hazel just reminded me of another game (noodle knows this one!).

I have two puppets, Foxy and Barney. Foxy sings with a high voice and Barney sings with a low voice. The children have to sing back, 'Hello, Foxy' or 'Hello, Barney' to whichever puppet they think it was who sang 'Hello, everyone' or 'Hello, Michael'. They have to try to copy the puppet's voice as well as correctly identify which puppet sang. (I often find that children can tell which pitch they are hearing but not copy it exactly - this is when the teacher's exhortation to 'sing in your foxy voice' takes on a whole new connotation... )

Obviously you can use whatever puppets you like! When you are 'helping' the puppets to sing you should hold one higher than the other - again this is helping to connect faster vibrations with the 'higher/lower' concept and vocabulary.

Btw, Foxy and Barney are going on their first plane ride to help me with a Kodaly workshop with noodle in June - they are very excited!

*sad woman, I know*

Sing the notes of the scale and do the actions.

Sing a middle C and stamp your feet
Sing a D and pat your knees
Sing an E and pat your tummy
Sing a F and pat your shoulders
Sing a G and pat your head
Sing an A and make a roof
Sing a B and twinkle stars
Jump up for High C

Then miss out notes to make a chord.

E is then higher up the body than C and this gives higher and lower a physical meaning to the child.

Thanks to everyone for your ideas. I'm realising how very uninventive I am myself! Thanks especially to Cyrilla for taking the time to type all that out. Yes, I would like to know more about this sort of thing generally. (I'm more used to older children.) Can you recommend any books?

Older children and adults can have trouble with this too.

I'm sure they are! I hope they have their plane tickets and passports ready.

...and I hope they are up to date with their vaccinations!



Hazel

Crumbs! I forgot their vaccinations!

*hurries off to book Foxy and Barney in at the doc's*

Sbhoa is so right!!

Patricia, I've tried to PM you with more info but I got the message that your PM function is disabled Is it possible to get this functioning, please, as I have lots of info that is really better PM'd to you rather than posted on the board.

Thanks!

Good idea. They wouldn't like to spend a week in quarantine. What about Bingo? Isn't he coming too?

Eeep!

*hurries off to make appointment for Bingo, too*

Tring to do that now. I'm new to the forums and didn't actually know I had such a thing! Thanks.

I have a girl who is ok in most octaves but not the very low ones, she just looses it at bass clef 2nd space C.

She had it checked and found she looses her hearing at a certain level - her parents would never have known and now she is getting help with it.

Now I always check all octaves - just becasue one works; or dosn;t work - , it dosn't mean they all do (or don;t)