Hello all.

i am interested in musical philosophy and psychology. i like to see poetic definitions of music, to read
little anecdotes that highlight particular viewpoints.

but most of all i love fun. i would like you to join me in a very topical swing about this wonderful part
of our lives.

how do you see music? spiritual? emotional? mathematical? analogies, metaphor, symbolism? heartbeat?
poetry?

i would love it if we could share our insights and experiences, whether we compose or just enjoy
listening.

so come on and join in so we can jointly try to define just what music means.

I will throw a question at you if you don't mind?!

Have you read The Glass Bead Game...Hermann Hesse?

Going through a particularly bad time at the moment and it's proving to be of great help and strength to me.

If anyone cares to read the book,there are some Amazon reviews worth reading. One says to read the last section first...poems and the three stories.This is the way to go.I found the Introduction hard going,so I followed the advice and now I don't want to read to the end.I will,of course,but this book is so good,I'm going to re-read it all again.

Before I'm accused of hijacking your topic,my answer is Music encompasses Everything to me. Of little help,but there you are.

Edit: And Welcome to the Forums.

2nd edit: Perhaps people read forums and don't bother to post,so this is aimed at you too.

My copy is translated by Richard and Clara Winston. Look to page 421.Poem entitled Stages.

Now compare that translation with this one by Mervyn Savill...supposedly the more clumiser of the two.

STEPS, by Herman Hesse

As every blossom fades and all youth sinks/ into old age, so every life's design,/ each flower of wisdom, every good, attains/ its prime and cannot last for ever./

At life's each call the heart must be prepared/ to take its leave and to commence afresh,/ courageously and with no hint of grief/ submit itself to other, newer ties./ A magic dwells in each beginning and/ protecting us it tells us how to live./

High-purposed we must traverse realm on realm,/ cleaving to none as to a home. The world/ of spirit wishes not to fetter us/ but raise us higher, further, step by step./

Scarce in some safe accustomed sphere of life/ have we established house, than we grow lax;/ he only who is ready to inspan/ and journey forth can throw old habits off./

Maybe death's hour too will send us out/ new-born toward undreamed-of lands, maybe/ life's call to us will never find an end.../ Courage, my heart, take leave and fare thee well!

Having plodded through the Glass Bead Game about 20 years ago, with gritted teeth and "I've started so I'll finish" , I came to a couple of conclusions:
Hesse was a misogynist.
I still don't know how they played the game!
Some of his other books are more readable, but he was a misogynist in all the ones I read.

The meaning of music? Not everything to me, perhaps, but I can't imagine my life without it, and feel the need to make music too. It is there for happy times, sad times, destresses me when I'm stressed, and provides company and a focus for conversation too.

I understand what you mean about plodding through.I tried to read this book about 25 years ago,but gave up. It was beyond me.

The title of the book is misleading,because you never get to know how the Game works.Perhaps this is intentional.

I read Steppenwolf quite a lot.

Perhaps it is because I'm so much older I can appreciate what Hesse is saying.

As for you thinking HH is an misogynist,I cannot find any grounds for this.Plus the fact he was married three times.

Would you like to pay HH another visit?

Women feature in the books I've read, but they are a distraction to the men, excluded from the real substance of their lives, and feature only as a sideline. In the Glass Bead Game, I think I remember correctly that they live on the very fringes of the game-playing community, and provide only for the non-spiritual and non-intellectual needs of the men? In Siddhartha, women cause a man to go off his spiritual track - the real and sole purpose of his life, according to the book - and Narziß und Goldmund is in any case begun in a monastory. I realise that men of Hesse's time may not have known women as well as those of today do, but, if he married so often, he surely had a chance? Steppenwolf I started to read a few times, but it did not grip me enough to get me through, and I think I will give that one another go. I do stand by what I said - but Hesse wasn't the only misogynist of his time... Maybe it was the time at which I read these, all when in my early twenties, and that wasn't yesterday.

STEPS, by Herman Hesse

As every blossom fades and all youth sinks/ into old age, so every life's design,/ each flower of wisdom, every good, attains/ its prime and cannot last for ever./

At life's each call the heart must be prepared/ to take its leave and to commence afresh,/ courageously and with no hint of grief/ submit itself to other, newer ties./ A magic dwells in each beginning and/ protecting us it tells us how to live./

High-purposed we must traverse realm on realm,/ cleaving to none as to a home. The world/ of spirit wishes not to fetter us/ but raise us higher, further, step by step./

Scarce in some safe accustomed sphere of life/ have we established house, than we grow lax;/ he only who is ready to inspan/ and journey forth can throw old habits off./

Maybe death's hour too will send us out/ new-born toward undreamed-of lands, maybe/ life's call to us will never find an end.../ Courage, my heart, take leave and fare thee well!
[/quote]

.............Some interesting lines here, thanks.

Never heard of the book you mentioned, I will take a look. Can you give the conceptual basis for
it on here and how that relates to musical meaning?

I dont wish to use difficult heavy going language on here.
For me the main aim is musical understanding from the point of view of a composer, and a
grasp of the actual process of response to music. All this I hope in laymans' terms. I want a
fun and easy going topic. Yes, I am comfortable if ideas are complex, but would appreciate it
if they could be expressed in a fun, beautiful/poetic, intriguing way. I certainly am not out to create
a dull, muddy dissertation.

So, keep it complex if you like, but make it accessible to anyone with a capacity to grasp complex
or abstract ideas.

the main thing that i've found out about music is that it is what the listener makes it to be. I tihnk that this is the true power behind why music is essential in life and an important part of everyones lifes. Beethoven sonatas to me are expressions of determination and hard work but to others they are romantic stories etc etc..... Cage's works..... they don't really appeal to me, but to others they are revolutionary expression of musicality.

so...... all in all i think music is the literature of the heart, the words that the heart is unable to find.

jaime

revolutionary expression of musicality.

so...... all in all i think music is the literature of the heart, the words that the heart is unable to find.

jaime

Hello Jaime,

How nice. 'Literature of the heart'.
It expresses the inexpressibe and communicates the unknowable according to Leonard Bernstein in his
Harvard lectures during the 70's. I really liked this view.

I guess if music communicates something unknowable then the "something" it communicates has to be some kind of intuitive truth about the world rather than a truth that is quantifiable or expressible within the (necessarily) limiting conceptual framework of language?

So perhaps music takes over at the point where language fails. Maybe this is why every human being would benefit from learning to play or sing music - it would give them a kind of "existential fullness" that they might otherwise never be able to get? Often when language fails the result is violence and pain, not music.

"Music, when soft voices die, vibrates in the memory." (Shelly)

"Who hears music feels his solitude peopled at once." (Browning)

"As poetry is the harmony of words, so music is that of notes." (Dryden)

"Music is well said to be the speech of angels; in fact, nothing among the utterances allowed to man is felt to be so divine. It brings us near to the Infinite." (Carlyle)

I think Music is a universal language - one that everybody understands, regardless of their background, race, religion - it is the one thing that has the potential to unite us all.

Its probably also fair to say that music is unknowable. Intuitive truth, but also could be an
intuitive falshood I imagine. Just that music itself maybe involves communication at a level which is not
rational. Not to say that music or poetry cannot be understood in rational terms, but rather that when
we listen to music it is not taken on by the same part of us which solves logic problems. At least thats how it seems to me. It has always interested me too if rationale will improve you as a musician. My feeling is no, but I am not sure here.

The point you made about the limits of language. Of course the nature of language or indeed knowledge itself could send us flying into philosophy, so hopefully it will, but in a fun way! Can we assume that 'knowing' doesnt require analysis. We all know what we mean, just maybe others dont see where we are coming from?... As for laguage, can we take it at its simplest?... a way of focussing attention on a particular aspect of what we see in our minds eye perhaps, whether abstract or concrete.

This is great fun so far, oh and... what is music?




Some really beautiful lines here, thank you. I especially liked the the second one by Browning.





Very nice.
How do we understand it?

I think music are emotions in their truest forms, I always think it's incredible how you can play exactly the same notes in a different way and convey completely different feelings. Not an exactly beautiful line but then I have never been at all poetically blessed!

I think we udnerstand music by experiece, the more we listen to it, the more we learn the influences and life of the composer at the time, the more we perform and play it for our own amusement the more we can understand the feelings/emotions are being communicated and whether we approve of the way it's been done.

Music is also the one thing which compeletly focuses me, not sure if this is related, I can easily sit infront of the piano for the entire afternoon digging out old music, working on the new, composing, improvising whatever. It can be a counsellor, infuriator, pacifyer, amongst many others.

Most cultures have music, I think - though there are a handful which reject it - and curiously, this seems to be because it is viewed as having a negative influence on people, usually for moral reasons. Music appreciation, though, is not universal, and I would guess that most people will come across something which is music to another's ears but not touch them.
Yet all kinds of music have the power to move someone.
Amazing.

Hi

It is beautiful for me that you have contributed.
Yes it is so very interesting isnt it...Experience has to be of major importance.
Re emotions. The same thing has astounded me. Same notes, different feel. Good and bad piano players. Sensitivity.
Leonard Bernstein talked a lot about types of metaphor. This can probably account for same notes, different feel. Metaphor is mysterious, so thus is music perhaps. The actual notes may only form part of the metaphor, the timing and so on provides the rest. Perhaps we should ask what the music 'stands for'...what does a particular section relate to?

I feel that for me music has allowed me to express feelings in a way that does not require me to know what the feelings are about. The true meaning may be hidden by music sometimes in that a metaphor of the problem is not a direct awareness of the problem. So maybe music is special in this sense for others too.




Yet all kinds of music have the power to move someone.
Amazing.
[/quote]

Yes I know what you mean. Such beautiful power must be worth investigating.
Do you think metaphor is a crucial idea when it comes to music?

Just thought I'd chuck a few nice long quotes into the mix....(from a little book called 'Music Lovers Quotations' if anyone's interested - Very nice but a bit extortionately priced for a tiny book of quotes!). But I've always found these pretty interesting:

'No one knows what music is. It is performed, listened to, composed, and talked about; but its essential reality is as little understood as that of its first cousin, electricity. We know that it detaches the understanding, enabling thoughts to turn inward upon themselves and clarify; we know that it releases the human spirit into some solitude of meditation where the creative process can freely act; we know that it can soothe pain, relieve anxiety, comfort distress, exhilarate healty, confirm courage, inspire clear and bold thinking, ennoble the will, refine tast, uplift the heart, stimulate intellect, and do many another interesting and beautiful thing. And yet, when all is said and done, no one knows what music is. Perhaps the explanation is that music is the very stuff of creation itself.' - LUCIEN PRICE

'What is music? This question occupied my mind for hours last night before I fell asleep. The very existance of music is wonderful, I might even say miraculous. Its domain is between though and phenomena. Like a twilight meditator, it hovers between spirit and matter, related to both, yet differing from each. It is spirit, but it is spirit subject to the measurement of time. It is matter but it is matter that can dispense with space.' - HEINRICH HEINE

'Music is essentially useless, as life is' - GEORGE SANTAYANA

'Muisc stands quite alone. It is cut off from all the other arts...It does not express a particular and definite joy, sorrow, anguish, horror, delight, or mood of peace, but joy, anguish, horror, delight, peace of mind themselves, in the abstract, in their essential nature, without accessories, and therefore without their customary motives. Yet it enables us to grasp and share them fully in this quintessence.' - ARTHUR SCHOPENHAUER

'Music is the shorthand of emotion. Emotions which let themselves be described in words with such difficulty, are directly conveyed...in music, and in that is its power and significance' - LEO TOLSTOY

'Music is the voice of all sorrow, all joy. It needs no translation.' - HELEN EXLEY

'We listen to great music and know that all our joys and sorrows are part of something beyond our comprehension - and so infinitely valuable.' - JESSE O'NEILL

'Music is the voice that tells us that the human race is greater than it knows.' - MARION C. GARRETTY

'Music is the voice of all humanity, of whatever time or place. In its presence we are one' - CHARLOTTE GRAY

'Music is the only language in which you cannot say a mean or sarcastic thing.' - JOHN ERSKINE

'I've never heard such corny lyrics, such simpering sentimentality, such repetitious, uninspired melody. Man, we've got a hit on our hands!' - BRAD ANDERSON (Sorry, that one just makes me laugh!)

'Music expresses that which cannot be said and on which it is impossible to be silent.' - VICTOR HUGO

'There is something very wonderful in music. Words are wonderful enough; but music is even more wonderful. It speaks not to our thoughts as words do; it speaks straight to our hearts and spirits, to the very core and root of our souls. Music soothes us, stirs us up; it puts noble feelings in us; it melts us to tears, we know not how: - it is a language by itself, just as perfect, in its way, as speech, as words; just as divine, just as blessed...' - CHARLES KINGSLEY

'Music speaks of Platonic truth - the ideal river rather than the polluted reality, love as we dream it rather than we experience it, grief noble and uplifting rather than our distracted weeping. It is necessary to our survival and our sanity' - PAM BROWN


OK, last one - sorry, I got a bit carried away!! If anyone's made it through this far, I salute you!

'I tell the story of love, the story of sorrow, the story that saves and the story that destroys...I am the smoke which palls over the field of battle where men die with me on their lips. I am close to the marriage altar, and when the grave opens I stand nearby. I call the wanderer home, I rescue the soul from the depths; I open the lips of lovers and through me the dead whisper to the living. One I serve as I serve all, and the leaders I make my slaves as easily as I subject their slaves. I speak through the birds of the air, the insects of the field, the crash of waters on rock ribbed shores, the sighing of the winds in the trees and I am even heard by the sould that knows me in the clatter of the wheels on city streets.' - ANON


EDIT: Whoops! That was long...sorry! (It would explain why it's just taken me 20 mins to type it wouldn't it?!)

EDIT: Whoops! That was long...sorry! (It would explain why it's just taken me 20 mins to type it wouldn't it?!)
[/quote]


Now that was fascinating....probably feels long, but only for the typist...
The very stuff of creation itself...hmmm I wonder. Well it doesnt seem impossible that sound in musical form has created or had a major part in creating all that we see and also creating 'seeing' itself. Music, the underlying connection of all we can know. I like this line of thinking.

Of the others Im having a hard time picking out a favourite. Some quite wonderful quotes, thank you.

[quote name='onlyus' date='Apr 21 2006, 12:53 AM' post='306479']
Hi

It is beautiful for me that you have contributed.
Yes it is so very interesting isnt it...Experience has to be of major importance.
Re emotions. The same thing has astounded me. Same notes, different feel. Good and bad piano players. Sensitivity.
Leonard Bernstein talked a lot about types of metaphor. This can probably account for same notes, different feel. Metaphor is mysterious, so thus is music perhaps. The actual notes may only form part of the metaphor, the timing and so on provides the rest. Perhaps we should ask what the music 'stands for'...what does a particular section relate to?

I feel that for me music has allowed me to express feelings in a way that does not require me to know what the feelings are about. The true meaning may be hidden by music sometimes in that a metaphor of the problem is not a direct awareness of the problem. So maybe music is special in this sense for others too.




Yet all kinds of music have the power to move someone.
Amazing.
[/quote]

Yes I know what you mean. Such beautiful power must be worth investigating.
Do you think metaphor is a crucial idea when it comes to music?
[/quote]

No, I don't think metaphor is crucial either in the understanding of music, or the description of it. What any one piece of music means will depend on who is listening to whom performing it. I can only talk of what a piece means to me - and that may not have been the idea the composer had in mind. We use metaphors to try to explain how music affects us, yes, but we can also describe direct effects - "it makes me sad", "it makes me happy", "it helps me to cope with being angry", and so on. I think if I got too involved with metaphors when playing, I'd play lousily!

[quote name='onlyus' date='Apr 21 2006, 02:55 PM' post='306679']
EDIT: Whoops! That was long...sorry! (It would explain why it's just taken me 20 mins to type it wouldn't it?!)
[/quote]


Now that was fascinating....probably feels long, but only for the typist...
The very stuff of creation itself...hmmm I wonder. Well it doesnt seem impossible that sound in musical form has created or had a major part in creating all that we see and also creating 'seeing' itself. Music, the underlying connection of all we can know. I like this line of thinking.

Of the others Im having a hard time picking out a favourite. Some quite wonderful quotes, thank you.
[/quote]

They are wonderful aren't they?! As I said, it's a great book - I was having to be very hard on myself to prevent myself typing out every single quote in it! I love the idea from Lucien Price (very stuff of creation itself) and I thought the reference to electricity was quite interesting too!

Right, let's get down to business.

1. You suggest that you don't want this thread to wander into the realms of philosophy. I don't believe you can have a debate about musical meaning without bringing in philosophical concepts. After all if the question "What is music?" does not invite a philosophical response, what does?! If we are going to discuss anything relating to "meaning" we are necessarily going to have to include a whole number of concepts around the idea of meaning-making, e.g. language, truth/logic, rationality etc. Philosophy is, broadly speaking, concerned with the analysis and application of such concepts.

2. I'm not convinced (following my suggestion that music might work on a level of intuitive truth) by your suggestion of "intuitive falsehood" as this seems to me to be a logical impossibility. How can intuitive feelings in themselves be false? Perhaps you may argue that to speak, as I did, of "intuitive truth", one must necessarily be able to invoke the idea of "intuitive falsehood" to give it any logically coherent meaning. I would like to revise my original suggestion by getting rid of the idea of "intuitive truth" and instead suggest "intuitive 'this'-ness", the idea that what exists on an intuitive or emotional level exists in itself quite detached from any notions of truth or falsehood. The intuition simply is, there is nothing true or false about it. Perhaps we need only discuss the nature of the intuitive response as this is the only way we can experience it - categories of true and false do not apply.

3. Interesting that you don't think we need to assume or bring in a consideration of the limitations of language, then ask whether metaphor is crucial when it comes to understanding music. Metaphor is itself a symptom of the limits of language. Briefly to explain this: if we do not have adequate means to express something rationally (i.e. within the structure of existing language) we can turn to metaphor. Metaphor works by putting together words/ideas which, if taken literally, are clearly false/impossible. What happens is that we then, consciously or otherwise, search for some kind of "meaning" that this logically false proposition brings to mind: some kind of linguistic or conceptual association. What happens is that a new successful metaphor becomes able to express something that there was previously no capacity within the existing language to express. Metaphor invites us to begin explaining what the meaning might be using our ordinary, everyday language, thereby highlighting the fact that our ordinary language is unable to get close to the kind of meaning that the person making the metaphor wishes to communicate.

So, if metaphor is crucial in understanding music, we must bear this in mind. If you suggest that music itself is some kind of giant metaphor then it is clearly something that operates beyond the capacity of existing language. If music can only be known to us through using metaphor as a discursive vehicle then the same thing applies: we use our limited linguistic apparatus to attempt to somehow "know" it in a "rational" (i.e. not intuitive or irrational) way. I would therefore argue that any discussion of musical meaning MUST bring in ideas about language and its limitations. The suggestion that metaphor might be crucial in understanding music attests to this. In fact, it brings it to the very centre of the discussion.

PS Just re-read the subheading for this thread: "philosophical debate about musical meaning", yet you claim want to keep philosophy out of the discussion...

I'm not really sure I understand the metaphor debate, metaphors can be useful when trying to get to grips with a new piece or something, i.e. to imagine water trickling down the piano to gain a particular effect, but I find if you try to metaphorsise music as you listen to you distracts you from the music. You should let music flow around you and into you, not try to analyse exactly what it sounds like? I agree with the point that someone has said the metaphors are restricted by words, wheras music is not restricted in this way at all.

I agree with anacrusis that music can communictae our feelings without needing to understand them in the first place, I think this is where it's power lies compared to the other art forms, with poetry, literature, drama and most visual art you need to analyse how you feel and normally why, wheras music you just simply express it as best as you are able.

'Music is the only language in which you cannot say a mean or sarcastic thing.' - JOHN ERSKINE I like this quote, but I have to say a lot of music can make you feel very unsettled, which could be a consequence or 'toned-down' method of these cruelties.

I thought it was fascinating that almost every culture embraces music, I think we should also bear in mind how closely related music has been and is with religion, people seem to feel that the unexplainability of music is similar in the way that some questions are unanswerable in religious terms?

'What does music stand for?', How can you answer that question? It can stand for everything depending on the genre, intention and listener. If we think about that it moves us away from the enjoyment of it? Actually now I'm going to disagree with myself and say that music stands for satisfaction, the composer and performer no doubt feel a sense of satisfaction when the work is complete and something has been communicated, despite the inevitable annoyances. To the listener it must be completely unpredictable what the music has stood for for them.

I'm not sure if this is strictly related, but you know when you hear a certain performer, fall in love with a certain piece, share music with other competant music and you get that 'buzz', descirbed as 'shivers' or that 'special something', how can you describe it? What makes some music and some musicians different?

Well, yes, lets have philosophy, lets have it all! I knew I was not being clear about this side of things. So cheers for highlighting it!

I suppose I was not really very clear. Of course you are correct, 'what is music' invites philosophy more than a meeting to discuss the existence of God !

It is not philosophy I want to avoid. It is that heavy going language that often comes with it. So hopefully that clears things up a little. I will edit some of my previous comments so that they are more useful!

I found your comments fascinating by the way, thank you for them.

Do you think metaphor is a crucial idea when it comes to music?
[/quote]

No, I don't think metaphor is crucial either in the understanding of music, or the description of it. What any one piece of music means will depend on who is listening to whom performing it. I can only talk of what a piece means to me - and that may not have been the idea the composer had in mind. We use metaphors to try to explain how music affects us, yes, but we can also describe direct effects - "it makes me sad", "it makes me happy", "it helps me to cope with being angry", and so on. I think if I got too involved with metaphors when playing, I'd play lousily!
[/quote]

Ok. Heres a question....why can music alone, just heard in passing on the radio, affect us so deeply. I understand the point you make about individual response since it must depend on where we are at in life and so on, but what is it that we actually respond to?

I thought it was fascinating that almost every culture embraces music, I think we should also bear in mind how closely related music has been and is with religion, people seem to feel that the unexplainability of music is similar in the way that some questions are unanswerable in religious terms?

'What does music stand for?', How can you answer that question? It can stand for everything depending on the genre, intention and listener.

I'm not sure if this is strictly related, but you know when you hear a certain performer, fall in love with a certain piece, share music with other competant music and you get that 'buzz', descirbed as 'shivers' or that 'special something', how can you describe it? What makes some music and some musicians different?
[/quote]


I agree with you about the value of comparing religious and musical mysteries, and how closely related they are in obvious senses too.

When I said 'what does music stand for' I was inviting specific examples rather than asking for a general answer but I can see how my comments were unclear in this sense. My apologies.

What makes some music/ musicians different? My question too!

Music is proof that God exists.

Is everyone familiar with the story about when Einstein heard Menuhin play? He said (in German) something along the lines of "hearing you play reassures me that our dear old Hashem (sic) is still up there". How very true.

[quote name='benjaminja' post='306818' date='Apr 21 2006, 07:08 PM']
Right, let's get down to business.


Ok lets see.
Your point number 2. I see where youre coming from there and essentially agree, and at some level I think possibly my use of the term 'intuitive falsehood' was to point towards the question regarding whether it is reasonable to view intuition in the true/false sense.

3.Very interesting. Firstly I would say that any metaphor can be known in rational terms, you just simply explain it! But I think there is a difference between 'knowing' in the rational sense and 'knowing' music. I think the thing that makes debates like this so rivetting is the fact that we are touching on that which most inspires us as humans, which is possibly mystery. I think maybe it is the desire to 'know' in rational terms which partly creates the sense of mystery, otherwise none of us would be having this discussion.

My own reason for starting this topic is maybe of interest to you. Well, I am musical myself. I compose. I am inspired to be musical more than any other direction. I am interested in religious experience since I have my own experiences to account for or not as the case may be. I began this topic because I wanted to see how my views on music contrast with others. Thats it.

To quote some Sisters Of Mercy lyrics from the song Some Kind Of Stranger:

All I know for real
All I know for sure
Is knowing doesnt mean so much.

Greetings,

For me, among all the things what music is … It is powerful and it is communication, but a communication delivered that sometimes requires certain conditions to make it special to each listener / recipient / observer.

This is beautifully defined in Howard Goodall’s book “Big Bangs” the story of five discoveries that changed musical history. Especially in the chapter on Vatican secrets, where we are informed that the “Pope had realised the great power and beauty of one of the most famous and beautiful of all sacred vocal works … Allegri’s Misere Mei, Deus and considered it to be so spiritually powerful, so close to a sense of the almighty, that the pope insisted that only his personal choir at the Sistine Chapel should be able to sing it and then only once per year, during Holy Week. Consequently copies of the music, was locked away, and kept jealously away from prying eyes in Europe. Until Mozart, (at 14 years of age), on hearing it once, memorised and duly copied it out for all to see”.

HG also outlines how the occasion(s), certain conditions, time of day, climate, present company, etc can make the musical experience a special 3-D moment for the individual that sometimes can never be recaptured / experienced the same again. He mentions a couple of his experiences and stories, and one that touched me, was the story about a special needs school in the Greater Manchester area, that he was visiting as a representative of the sponsor of a series of musical workshops and therapy sessions, run by the Halle Orchestra’s percussion department. “The children where severely mentally and physically handicapped, with one carer per child. Some of the children made no identifiable response at all. There was the usual special school atmosphere of affectionate firmness, and the percussion man proceeded with his turn, which involved much clowning and banging around. The kids enjoying it enormously. The climax to the workshop, which lasted about 20 mins, was where the percussion man, joined now by the guitarman handed out a percussion instrument to every single child and carer. He taught everyone a rhythm to contribute to the over-all orchestra of crashes and bangs, guiros, maracas, cabasas and tambourines.

During the joyous cacophony, HG was watching a little boy of 5 or 6 yrs of age, who could barely hold the drum he had been given – his carer had to keep picking the beater up off the floor for him, but after considerable effort he managed the simple rhythm. He wasn’t smiling or watching the other children, he was too autistic to focus his eyes, but he was hitting the drum rat-tat-tat in unison with everyone else. Not particularly remarkable, a child playing a drum. HG’s gaze wondered to his right and he noticed that the child’s carer had tears streaming down her face, as she was embarrassed to be caught weeping HG looked away. At the end of the session HG approached her to ask if anything was wrong. She replied “You don’t understand. I have been working with this little boy since he came here 4 years ago. When he imitated the rhythm of the music just then it was the first time ever he had responded to something another human being had done. It is his first communication with another person. I was overcome by it, that’s all”. “A child reaches out across the abyss separating him from the rest of humanity – a journey as daunting as crossing the North Pole in winter would be for us. His lifeline not a word, not a glance, not a cuddle, not a smile, not a kiss, not a book, not a painting, not a film, not a TV programme, not a play, not a computer, not a person even, but a musical rhythm. This is the alchemy of music it is …”


A few quotes that I quite like (although a couple are by anonymous authors) are:-

“Melody is the golden thread running through the maze of tones by which the ear is guided and the heart is reached – Anonymous.

“God gave us music so that we can pray without words”– St Augustine, 354-430

“You shall know the beauty of men’s souls from the music that they love” - Anonymous

and finally…
“Pay no attention to critics …. No statue has ever been put up to a critic” – Jean Sibelius.

There cannot be proof of existence of a God or gods. Our interactions with deities depend on faith. Proof elbows faith out - I think this is why religions have a history of suppressing original thinking, lest someone should come up with a proof which makes faith pointless. I don't think faith is pointless, I might add - and I hope that humans (if we don't destroy ourselves first) will always have things to ponder over and work out, that we'll never reach a point of understanding our world fully.
For those with religious inclinations, music undoubtedly can be an enhancement, though as I said before, there have been and are cultures which see music as a source of evil. However, there are plenty of musicians without religious inclination, and it would be insulting to suggest that their perception and expression of music is in any way impaired or incomplete.

I knew about that yes. It brings up the whole question of what God actually is, which ties in with an earlier comment re unexplained religious experience.

This debate is about music, but of course if you believe in God it might be about that. Perhaps it would help if you explained what you personally refer to when you think of God.

For me Im not sure about 'God' .
My way is being possibly intuitively aware of the 'bigger picture', more along the lines of energy, or harmony or whatever than the biblical version of things. Of course it is different for everyone subjectively, but if the biblical version were true it should be the same for everyone.
Falling in love for example is the same feeling for everyone, but we can blur the connection between reality and what we see in our minds eye when we think of what love is. Also, we cannot really think of love, we can only feel it. Thus if we have no feel, we are not dealing with love, whether we think we are or not.

Perhaps just as we cannot know love, we cannot know music, we can only feel it.

Or maybe this is a terrible analogy. What do you think?

[quote name='onlyus' date='Apr 21 2006, 11:21 PM' post='307030']
Do you think metaphor is a crucial idea when it comes to music?
[/quote]

No, I don't think metaphor is crucial either in the understanding of music, or the description of it. What any one piece of music means will depend on who is listening to whom performing it. I can only talk of what a piece means to me - and that may not have been the idea the composer had in mind. We use metaphors to try to explain how music affects us, yes, but we can also describe direct effects - "it makes me sad", "it makes me happy", "it helps me to cope with being angry", and so on. I think if I got too involved with metaphors when playing, I'd play lousily!
[/quote]

Ok. Heres a question....why can music alone, just heard in passing on the radio, affect us so deeply. I understand the point you make about individual response since it must depend on where we are at in life and so on, but what is it that we actually respond to?
[/quote]

It can affect us deeply, but it is not inevitable that it will. I think it depends on what we have heard before, in what context - right down to whether our mothers sang to us when we were tiny, whether we sang and clapped and danced in primary school, and to what music. My sister and I used to strain to hear the LPs being played by our parents in the evenings when we had gone to bed - one of those records was of Vivaldi's mandolin concertos, played on a guitar. It leaves me with a responsiveness to baroque music, to guitar music, to Vivaldi's music, to Corelli when his music sounds a little bit like Vivaldi.....and so on. I happen not to like the sound of particular instruments, and not to be able to respond as I see others do to particular genres (eechh, I hate that word) of music - presumably that also has been moulded by experience.
In addition to the "conditioning" provided by music I have heard, my own mood must come into the equation. I do think that music evokes in me a sense of who I am and where I am, built up on what I have been and how I got here - this is an more subtle and complex phenomenon than the effect particular smells can have on us, but similar.

Yours is a beautiful and moving post.

It can affect us deeply, but it is not inevitable that it will. I think it depends on what we have heard before, in what context - right down to whether our mothers sang to us when we were tiny, whether we sang and clapped and danced in primary school, and to what music. My sister and I used to strain to hear the LPs being played by our parents in the evenings when we had gone to bed - one of those records was of Vivaldi's mandolin concertos, played on a guitar. It leaves me with a responsiveness to baroque music, to guitar music, to Vivaldi's music, to Corelli when his music sounds a little bit like Vivaldi.....and so on. I happen not to like the sound of particular instruments, and not to be able to respond as I see others do to particular genres (eechh, I hate that word) of music - presumably that also moulds my response.
In addition to the "conditioning" provided by music I have heard, my own mood must come into the equation. I do think that music evokes in me a sense of who I am and where I am, built up on what I have been and how I got here - this is an more subtle and complex phenomenon than the effect particular smells can have on us, but similar.
[/quote]


Interesting.
That word 'conditioning'. This has a ring of truth about it. It could explain why I am so fond of certain harmonies. As to why it had any power to influence or interest us in the first place, Im not sure. Does reponse to music begin with conditioning? When I was young I responded well to hymns because we sang them together at school...life felt more meaningful in those days .
Why sing though. Why not just stare at a picture together? What does music contain that interests us so much? I see that music is not guaranteed to get a response, but when it does why does it? What is the stuff of music?

mm......... i think it may be because singing is acessable to everyone. We can all open our mouths and make sounds, whereas it's alot more expensive to go and produce any type of painting etc..... I think also... well this is how I feel, When you listen to music you can actually feel it, it's a very physical thing. When i listen to music i can't control my body from moving with it. I think music gains its appeal from the very fact that everyone feels this and are given occasiona such as gigs, concerts, fetivals where they can collecively appreciate what music does to them without feelin dorky or weird.

do you not think also that musis is the only art form that we are exposed to from birth. As a foetus we are linited in what we can appreciate visually, but we can hear. So whilst in the womb we are being exposed to the osunds and music of the world. then once born, everything around us, primairly childrens programmes, contain childrens songs of simple nature for young minds. I think we are taught and raised to love music and it is a very unavoidable situation whether you are going to love it the degree where you learn an instrument, take a degree or privately sing in the shower.

[quote name
do you not think also that musis is the only art form that we are exposed to from birth. As a foetus we are linited in what we can appreciate visually, but we can hear. So whilst in the womb we are being exposed to the osunds and music of the world. then once born, everything around us, primairly childrens programmes, contain childrens songs of simple nature for young minds. I think we are taught and raised to love music and it is a very unavoidable situation whether you are going to love it the degree where you learn an instrument, take a degree or privately sing in the shower.
[/quote]


I like your comment about music being a very physical thing. Ive heard it referred to as sensuous poetry before and rather liked that idea.

mmm a very nice post. It would be unexpected if the truth about all music is that it relates entirely to how we construed sounds in the womb. I know this is not exactly what you meant but its just a thought. Of course when your a foetus, all you can appreciate is the sound or musicality of speech, not the literal meaning. So could it be that music is more primal than speech and that our appreciation of it depends more on what we picked up from our mothers' voice(and possibly other sounds) than anything else.

I go along with you about being taught to love music. It is also worth saying that we choose music as something worthy of teaching. We can develop our own musical tastes. We respond, even in the depths of despair, there is music out there which will reach us. We are taught, but Im not sure if that is necessary. We picked it up rather easily, just as if tuition was only to have the presense of an adult...

I suppose an interesting question might be : If we had only been exposed to music in terms of heartbeat, speech, but not composed music or singing of any kind, could we still respond to the music of say Mozart in a full way?

Along with the special school thing mentioned above, we went to do a music afternoon in a special school last year and the kids really seem to relate to music somehow - the response that we got from them was amazing and they all seemed to enjoy themselves so much. Maybe they're like this all the time, and I'm only linking their response to music because that was all I saw, or maybe there is something to do with music that allows them to relate to it more...who knows? They were incredible kids anyway!

Another quote I liked - 'The Prokofiev 'Romeo and Juliet' sends an entire audience om-pomming into the street, invisible swords flickering' - PAM BROWN

I agree with the comment made about the quote 'Music is the only language in which you cannot say a mean or sarcastic thing'. Thinking back to some of the list C piano pieces, some of them are quite jeering and could make you feel a bit uncomfortable maybe if you took them too seriously...

Anyway, I'd better drag myself back to do baroque counterpoint techniques...*sob*...I'll be so glad when my exams are over!!

[quote name='onlyus' date='Apr 22 2006, 01:07 AM' post='307063']
It can affect us deeply, but it is not inevitable that it will. I think it depends on what we have heard before, in what context - right down to whether our mothers sang to us when we were tiny, whether we sang and clapped and danced in primary school, and to what music. My sister and I used to strain to hear the LPs being played by our parents in the evenings when we had gone to bed - one of those records was of Vivaldi's mandolin concertos, played on a guitar. It leaves me with a responsiveness to baroque music, to guitar music, to Vivaldi's music, to Corelli when his music sounds a little bit like Vivaldi.....and so on. I happen not to like the sound of particular instruments, and not to be able to respond as I see others do to particular genres (eechh, I hate that word) of music - presumably that also moulds my response.
In addition to the "conditioning" provided by music I have heard, my own mood must come into the equation. I do think that music evokes in me a sense of who I am and where I am, built up on what I have been and how I got here - this is an more subtle and complex phenomenon than the effect particular smells can have on us, but similar.
[/quote]


Interesting.
That word 'conditioning'. This has a ring of truth about it. It could explain why I am so fond of certain harmonies. As to why it had any power to influence or interest us in the first place, Im not sure. Does reponse to music begin with conditioning? When I was young I responded well to hymns because we sang them together at school...life felt more meaningful in those days .
Why sing though. Why not just stare at a picture together? What does music contain that interests us so much? I see that music is not guaranteed to get a response, but when it does why does it? What is the stuff of music?
[/quote]

But I do stare at pictures - or at fantastic landscapes spread out before me when I've hauled myself up a hill, or at the fascinating patterns of lace which the wind draws over the surface of the sea. These experiences are as meaningful to me as music is - they also provide an atmosphere in which to, er, be - sorry if this sounds even more pompous than usual, but it is difficult to express.
Life has become more meaningful, or at any rate, less two-dimensional as I've got older. I often found myself annoyed by the words in hymns, but did like the melodies, so would sing anyway, missing out the phrases which really stuck in my gizzard. Luckily we had superb music teaching at my primary school - I owe a lot to Mrs Wright, who taught us to sing and helped our choir to win prizes at the Leamington Festival year after year - and I can still remember so many of the interesting songs she taught us, and have sung them to my own children. When I then looked for song books to share with my kids, I'm sure my choices were influenced by what I knew and loved.
We do all grow up with rhythm - mother's heartbeat and the white noise of her blood-flow being the first. Pop music exploits early responses to this - if mum is stressed, her heart rate goes up, and baby responds by putting its rate up too. If you play music at a rate which people "recognise" as being like an excited human heart-rate, they will feel excited when listening. You can wind people up - and down - with music.

yea...... perhaps this is why we can feel music? i was also thinking earlier.... because we all have developed a sense of hearing, we can all tell when music sounds bad, for example, when someone can't sing and is out of tune, we can tell it is out of tune. but we can't comment on the intricate brush details of art..... well i certainly couldnt critic a piece of art, but i assume evryone can appreciate the eyebrow lifting twitches of someone singing flat?

also....... deaf people, dont they get a sense of music by the vibration that resonate through their bodies? artwork cannot give off such forces, not dance nor statues, but music is physical and therefore sensually pleasing i guess.

but putting the physical qualities of music aside, there is melodies and harmony to consider. Gosh, i do not get the same pleasure form listening to a car rev it's engine as i do when listening to music. perhaps we all enjoy music becuase its the way we satisfy our ears? our tingue is pleasured by food, our noses by smell, our skin by touch, so can our ears and sense of pitch or our aural world be satisfied by music?

oh..... just a little qoute

Music is the shorthand of emotion. - Leo Tolstoy

I don't think anyone would suggest that. "Proof of God" isn't really what I meant - there isn't a suitable English translation for "shechinah" - it sort of means the presence of God...sort of...anyway, that's what music can give some people, and for those with faith, who don't need proof of God anyway, it's as good as! There aren't many things which give you that feeling, music (for some people) is certainly one of them.
Listen to the 2nd mov of Mozart 40, when it has that massive build-up, and finally reaches that climax point, and tell me you didn't feel something special there...

Yes, music is, essentially, vibration. As physicists will tell us, everything that exists vibrates to some extent. We are vibratory beings. Studies are being carried out on vibration therapy as a type of medicine (something that would perhaps have been commonplace in the Renaissance, at which time it was well-'known' that the whole cosmos was tuned like a scale by God, earth being the lowest note, heaven the highest) and it has been proven that certain environmental vibrations have a clear effect on one's mood.

Might this fact of music as vibration figure in the discussion of musical meaning? Might it be that certain musical vibrations are more sympathetic to the vibration of our own bodies, therefore they feel (on a non-rational level) more essential or more meaningful to us precisely because they correspond with the movement of our own corporal particles? Perhaps it is an entirely physical thing?

Music is beautiful. That's about all I can say!

Matt

Something special, yes. But that does not mean it is presence of any deity. Many other experiences can give me a similar "lift", from seeing Scottish Ballet do their recent programme to getting a dinghy to plane over the surface of the sea, from the sight of a really perfect flower to the taste of a well-made meal, from the intricate details in a good painting to the love felt for a fellow human being. The intensity of such feelings may be different, but they are part of the same thing to me.

I agree with anacrusis here. I dont see how you can justify a presense of God by saying you feel something special. It is not reasonable. I know you may debate this by saying that its not about reason, but in your comments, you have a pretence of reason, so can we assume that you have some value you place on reason?

You take the existence of God on faith in my view. There can be no presense of God unless God actually exists, and that is an assumption I find it impossible to make.

I may be willing to say that all the God related symbolism, kind stories and so on are proof that 'good' exists or 'health' or something like that. Jesus in my view was a philosopher who came to the conclusion he was the son of 'God'. The stuff that religion, or at least christianity has dealt with is very imortant to us as humans, but that does not mean the whole story is true.

Of course this is just my opinion.

Overall though, are you saying that our appreciation of music is based on it being delivered by 'God' through composers?

Just out of interest, are you religious? It might make it easier for me to try and explain myself if you tell me I don't think you really get my drift, probably due to my rubbish explanation.


No! I'm saying that man delivers music (or woman ), and the music can bring us closer to Him when it is delivered well...there's no way you can say that certain music is God's doing. Ahem.

Hmm maybe I shouldn't have mentioned the God thing, seem to have caused a long argument! I don't think music is proof that God exists but I think it is interesting that it is used by some to communicate with God, or provoke similar feelings as faith and it's consequences provoke.

I thought the idea of the purely physical quality of music was interesting, perhaps vibrations of particular tones etc. are similar to our natural vibrations. I did read somewhere that when someone listens to music a part of them moves in time with the music, be it a toe, or hidden movements which are too tiny of internal, I thought this was fascinating, and if we always respond physically maybe it means most of it's power over us is physical. I also thought the vibratinonal therapy was very interesting, aslo remember that radiotherapy for the treatment of tumours and cancer is already a derivative of this. I may be wrong, but I think I heard that the chinese believe the energy lines that the tap into for accupuncture and the like are types of physical energy lines, i.e. vibrational.

The idea of music being the superior one because it is the first we are exposed to in the womb, I assumed the senses of hearing and sight developed at similar times, but surely foetuses can also sense light, dark, as well as foremostly movement, this would put art and dance on a par with music as an art form?

Anyway back to why music affects us so deeply, I think it must be very physical but this cannot be the full story, I think it is a combination of much already said, music is very involving as an art form and evokes strong opinions and discussions. Also it is the fact that we can't describe exactly why it makes us feel how it does, i.e. why does that certain piece make us feel reflectful, yes you could say because it is slow but that doesn't explain why properly. The inexplanable attracts us, particularly as we seem to have more and more answers with the advancement of science, not that that is a bad thing, but it makes us cling on to the inexplanable more.

The comment about accessibility of music is quite interesting. However, I would like to add that I come from a quite unmusical family, there was little music in my house when I was young although I do have musical grandparents. I do feel it was a shame as I don't have that many memories involving music as a young child and I was not very confident in my opinions of music for a while. However, I have developed my own tastes independantly and seem to be particularly drawn towards classical music although I did not hear much of this until the last couple of years or so. I think different music attracts different vulnerabilities in our personality regardless of whether we have specific memories of that kind of music, think of all the weird bands you like that everyone else seems to hate! Why do we like different types of music anyway? Obvisously the world would be quiet boring and the range of music very limited if we did all like the same but what casues us to be different?

[quote name='anacrusis' date='Apr 22 2006, 11:43 AM' post='307142'][/quote]

But I do stare at pictures - or at fantastic landscapes spread out before me when I've hauled myself up a hill, or at the fascinating patterns of lace which the wind draws over the surface of the sea. These experiences are as meaningful to me as music is - they also provide an atmosphere in which to, er, be - sorry if this sounds even more pompous than usual, but it is difficult to express.
Life has become more meaningful, or at any rate, less two-dimensional as I've got older. I often found myself annoyed by the words in hymns, but did like the melodies, so would sing anyway, missing out the phrases which really stuck in my gizzard. Luckily we had superb music teaching at my primary school - I owe a lot to Mrs Wright, who taught us to sing and helped our choir to win prizes at the Leamington Festival year after year - and I can still remember so many of the interesting songs she taught us, and have sung them to my own children. When I then looked for song books to share with my kids, I'm sure my choices were influenced by what I knew and loved.
We do all grow up with rhythm - mother's heartbeat and the white noise of her blood-flow being the first. Pop music exploits early responses to this - if mum is stressed, her heart rate goes up, and baby responds by putting its rate up too. If you play music at a rate which people "recognise" as being like an excited human heart-rate, they will feel excited when listening. You can wind people up - and down - with music.
[/quote]

Some pictures are really wonderful aren't they, and I see what you mean re the comparison to music. What would you say is a common thread in all art or aesthetic appreciation?

Yes, hymns. In my younger days I did not care what the words meant, which tells a lot about the attention I paid in religious studies. I probably just enjoyed the melodies and that they were ideal for singing together in many ways. I used to love All Things Bright And Beautiful, Freely Freely, Morning Has Broken and a few other favourites. Our choir never won any prizes, but in its defence it did not try, it saw no point, it only just held itself together, and in many ways fell apart whilst still holding together...a bizzare setup but we loved it.

Ive often wondered at the significance of some of the tones and effects I notice in modern music. They really do affect us, and I would be interested to have a working knowledge of the latest sonic ideas.

It depends what you mean by religious. If you mean 'do I believe in God' or 'am I a christian' type of thing. then my answer is not really. My 'special' experiences around religious music or church can be accounted for in other ways. I believe in the psychological perspective as a way to account for them, and after seeing Derren Brown in his programme about faith, I have little room left for a serious all embracing faith in God.

It was with great sadness to wave goodbye to the church. It seemed to contain a lot I did need but unfortunately a lot I could not take on board also. I think anacrusis mentioned something about surpressing original thought...this was just too much for me. Yes I want to be part of a large group with common interests, and yes I would like it if the focus were on something special, but Id prefer the something special to be the force of human love, appreciation of beauty, or some mixture of elements. Everyone will have different ideas about what they want however, and they often change throughout their lives.

Maybe the traditional religious setup is enough for you, and that is fine as far as I can see. I am not against any particular belief system, but I will say that the attitude of 'we have the truth and you need to see it too' is one I try to avoid.

The God thing, yes, in it sort of came! Its not your fault, I dont think anyone is blaming you....

So where are we now?
Your post is interesting. To pick up on the physical attributes of music. I think our chests act as a resonating cavity for our voices. Rather like the body of a guitar or the tubes of a trombone, so this must surely be one aspect of it.

I'm not sure. I think I tend to the egoistical view, that it is an individual matter. I know my response to an experience, and I'm aware that others may not have the same or a similar experience. I'm sure everyone has also felt that sense of delight when they discover someone else does seem to be reacting in a similar way to a piece of music, or a work of art....or even a pasta dish, come to that. We are pleased when we meet kindred spirits, perhaps because it makes us a tiny bit less isolated in this world. But what the essence of those responses is, I'm not sure - I could describe it all again based on conditioning and physiology, and certainly that is one part of it, but the romantics would probably recoil at such an analysis!

Your comment about those who feel their perception of truth is the only right one is one with which I identify fully - and it happens at all sorts of levels, not just a religious one. It would be impossible for us to react to others in a way which fully takes account of cultural and other differences all the time, which is why I would always plead for tolerance and an attempt to understand, even if we cannot fully agree with the standpoint of others. It is not something which is easy to do, though, and it has taken me decades to learn even the little ability I have to do this- working in a culture very different to my own has helped. It does make deciding right and wrong more difficult! But that is another discussion for another day.

To me music is music.