Do you have any experience of entering pupils for London College grade exams? Is the standard required to pass the same as ABRSM and Trinity Guildhall?

At the risk of starting another forum war, no the standard is not the same. I have only a few students who do London college exams because they started them with their previous teacher. My weakest student last term got distinction in grade 3 piano. I have a friend who is a Trinity examiner and he has heard this student play. When I see him next week I'll ask him what he thinks of her getting distinction and get back to you!

There have been threads on this before, you might find doing a search useful.

Why do you ask?

Oh wow, you can hear the rumble of a Mrs Merton style "heated debate" just around the corner.

I have no real experience of these qualifications, I remember thinking that the grade 5 pieces looked like grade 3 pieces, but that was a good year or two ago and I wasn't actually interested or informed enough to form a real opinion even then.

Use your own judgement and of course, ask around! I wouldn't ever use them with my own pupils just because so many musicians I know refer to them as "not worth the paper they're written on" - - It would be awful for anyone to work for any qualification only to come accross someone tactless who repeated something like that to them. Believe me when I say i know!! - - My A- level music teacher said something similar in front of several people when I got my Grade 8 with Trinity College London!

.... grrr grrrr nostalgic grumble....

Ax

The standard isn't the same but I'd say the choice of pieces is better, much more appealing, more modern. I use the AB but if I found a student who really hated the AB pieces, of which there are some really awful choices in this syllabus, I'd consider using LCM.

Reply to Noodle (Haven't yet worked out how to quote just a portion of a post.)
The reason I ask is that there is such a wide choice of pieces. Also, I recently had a pupil come to me from another teacher, well underway with LCM Grade 4 piano, so I entered him for the exam. I expected a pass and got a high merit. I'm not usually wrong when I make a prediction, so it just set me wondering. I'm new to the forums, so it didn't occur to me to do a search; I'm going to work out now how to do that! Thanks.

I'm glad to hear you say that! I'm not usually wrong either - unless it's a London College exam. Welcome to the forums!

I remember that sight reading example you sent me a while back!

Personally I like LCM exams; I love the pieces they choose.

They are QCA accredited and recognised as the same grading as the AB by the folks who rate these things officially.

Are they easier? That is not easy to quantify.

• The pieces were more fun to practise so that makes them easier to practise.
• You can do a study instead of scales, for some pupils therefore easier.
• The pieces last longer - easier for teachers who like to play the pieces required lol

I do LCM pre prep, step 1 and step 2 (all pre grade 1 with certificates) then LCM grades. BUT now I am switching to ABRSM grades ... why?

Because

• I like the pieces, the board are choosing more tuneful ones or I am getting older and hopefully wiser
• You have to do scales (Yes I like scales)
• The pieces only last a year hence I don't have to suffer the same ones
• I am doing a CT ABRSM course and since talking to examiners they seem more human than they used to (runs and hides )

I will still use LCM exams for certain pupils and pre grade 1.

In the end the exam must reach the QCA standard but suit the pupil and the pupil suit the exam.

I recently took on a student who has L C M grade 6 ( honours). He wanted to start preparing for grade 7, but
as there is not a local centre here for L C M agreed to change to A B. When he saw the pieces for grade 7 he was horrified, said they were too difficult for him, which they indeed proved to be. He brought some music to me which he was working on after taking his grade 6, and both the books are at roughly A B grade 4 standard, one of them being MORE ROMANTIC PIECES book 2. His teacher had told him that grades in this series of books is wrong, and although the book says grade 3/4 they are in fact grade 6/7. Now I have never used L C M but certainly this boy was around grade 4 standard, possibly almost ready to start preparing for the exam at that level, so there seems to be a huge difference in standards. He really has got his grade 6 honours, he brought his certificate to show me because when he saw how much more difficult the A B pieces are he thought I wouldn't believe that he really had it.
Danni

I think it depends on when the exam was taken the LCM have improved a lot recently and the new syllabus is the highest standard yet. I agree that 5 or 6 years ago they were two grades below and I agree that the ABRSM has the highest standard.

However I also see that a grade 5, 6, 7 and 8 students can play Sonata Facile with all the correct notes. They could also all play it for an exam; the examiner would expect different technical ability from each student according to the grade.

Last period but one the LCM had Le Petit Negre as a grade 5 piece. This period it is a grade 6 piece, one grade higher than the recommended grade 5 standard. This does not automatically make it a grade 5 exam in disguise - rather a grade 6 performance is required for an honours.

The pupil with a grade 6 honours -

Was it an old syllabus? -
Had the pupil's innate ability lowered since the exam was taken?
Was the pupil's innate ability really grade 6 when he took the exam? or
Did he learn by rote?

What is grade ability defined by?

Unfortunately my experience is the teachers entering are at fault by teaching to pass exams rather than teaching ability. Anyone can pass an exam if taught the pieces long enough; it is not the examining boards fault as such.

I know an adult who passed grade 5 piano with the ABRSM and cannot read the music, he learnt it all by copying and listening. He has no hope of passing grade 2 to be honest. He scraped the sight reading. This does not mean the AB grade 5 is to easy rather his teacher should not have entered him on pieces rather ability.

Standard, in the end, in my opinion, is based on repertoire and sight reading ability - not exam passes or examining board.

He passed the exam summer 2004, then started learning Fur Elise, a few pieces from More Romantic Pieces 2, and tried Moonlight Sonata, which proved to be too difficult. His teacher then said he was ready to start learning grade 7 pieces, but as the family would be moving north it would be better to wait until he was settled with a new teacher. In my opinion his performance ability is not much more than I would expect from a grade 3 to 4 student. I don't know how he learned his exam pieces, his reading is not bad but playing music rather than just notes is a problem for him so possibly there was some learning by imitation, but I still don't understand how he managed the result he got, or how he could be considered ready for grade7.
danni

i do LCM exams, and i have 1 person doing her Grade 6 keyboard soon, getting her to practise the songs in he old syllabus was difficult, but the knew songs she loves! But since the new syllabus has been out, every one has really got on with them and they all said the pieces are really good.

There are a lot of pieces on the LCM clarinet syllabus that are also on the AB one anyway, what I found the most confusing was that list A was the unacompanied piece! Although in an AB exam, you can play Finzi's Forlana for Grade 6, but with LCM it's Grade 5.

There are some huge discrepancies in the LCM gradings for flute.... some were discussed here - several postings in this thread. For example, at G6 they have the Faure Sicilienne which is very easy for grade 6, and then a choice between 3 very hard movements of the Rutter Suite Antique Even taking into account differences in how well the pieces are to be played, that's just crazy.

Faure Sicilienne? My sister did that for AB Grade 5!

Exactly - and it's in the same grade level as some G8/G8+ pieces....

It's not in their new flute syallabus, but I'm hoping Edexcel keep it on their repertoire list as a Grade 6 piece as it's then classed as 'more difficult' if they play it for AS Music.

Incidentally, the new Trinity/Guildhall draft list is out, and they have Dance of the Blessed Spirits as a Grade 6 piece. It's never been higher than Grade 5 in any other syllabus.

I wonder what Edexcel do when pieces are in different grades according to different boards?

That's interesting. I remember when I first learned it (long time ago) I thought that some of the bits on the 2nd page were a bit evil for G5 but it doesn't look nearly so scary these days!

It's difficult to judge standards between one grade and another, isn't it? (unless that's just me ) - between G5 and G8 what's harder is obvious, but when it's a G6 or 7 piece for example it depends a lot more on what suits the player, one that's very expressive but less technical may seem easier, but to someone else it may be much harder.

They take the highest grade it is set for. So if one board lists it as Grade 6, and all the others Grade 5, it is counted as Grade 6. That's why I was pleased to see Blessed Spirits listed as Grade 6, as it can be used for both AS (more difficult) and A2 (standard) from next year.

Oh right! That's useful then

Gaz, why do your pupils have to learn songs for their keyboard exams? - Do they have to sing them too??

I think you'll find that the standard required to pass LCM exams is much lower than the standard of Trinity or ABRSM. It isn't simply a question of the pieces/sight-reading that is performed but the standard the LCM examiner accepts as being good enough for a pass/merit or distinction. The sight-reading examples for London College grade 5 are around the same standard as ABRSM grade 3. I shouldn't really complain. A below average student who I inherited from a below average teacher has just passed grade 3 with distinction. It was her first distinction - she only scraped her previous exams - so she must have been considerably worse then.

ha ha

sorry i mean pieces although some do have words on

"I think you'll find that the standard required to pass LCM exams is much lower than the standard of Trinity or ABRSM. " (Noodle)

If this is the case, which I suspected, it may be worth using LCM for lower ability pupils, who would otherwise not pass. I'd love to know just how low you can go, and still get through. Denting a child's confidence with a fail is something I would hate to happen, but the alternative in some cases is just not to enter them for any more exams - beyond, say Grade 2 - which is also not very good for their confidence!

Hmm...bit tricky this one!
I got Distinction in both my AB Grade 7 and 8 but scraped a pass for sight reading in the exams!

My daughter recently got a high distinction for her Grade 1 LCM exam getting 24/25 for one of her pieces and 23/25 for the others, which included The March Shostakovich which I believe is an AB Grade 1 piece.
Other similarities:
Grade 1 LCM and AB , Children at Play Bartok.
Grade 2 LCM and AB ,Burgmuller's Arabesque.
Grade 5 LCM and AB , Kuhlau Sonatina in C.

However, my daughter is changing to AB. This is because she responds well and enjoys a challenge with music and I think she would benefit from the , overall, more structured and disciplined approach to music , offered by the AB. I also think the AB has improved in it's choice of music for students...there is a much better choice for students these days.

Pieces of music are chosen for a reason and if you want to excel in an instument, you have to learn certain techniques which are incorporated in the chosen pieces for the exams. I don't think short cuts are a good idea as it can lead to becoming a lazy musician.

Having said that, the AB structure does not suit all students and as long as the LCM syllabus is taught well, I believe it has alot to offer. Students can choose to do a Leisure Play option where they simply play a 4th piece of music instead of scales, sight reading and aural. This is good for some students who simply want to learn how to play pieces of music. At least they get some sort of credit for their ability to play music and allows them to access a musical instrument without being scared off by the sometimes daunting task of scales, sight reading and aural.

So, I think there are pros and cons, but I think the AB will always be held in higher regard as you have to be a more focused and disciplined musician to excel in their exams. There are no short cuts.

By the way, my sons are about to do their Grade 5 LCM exams. If they followed the AB route, they would not be playing at all. They enjoy just playing music which I think is great.

Ultimately a qualification is only as good as the general populus perceive it to be. QCA standards are not too reliable because they're so broad (and a lot of political correctness involved in making them). Grade 8 distinction is the same 'level' as grade 6 pass; A2-level is the same 'level' as AS-level (in reality AS-level is usually the easier half of A-level on which A2-level builds); furthermore, getting an E at AS-level is the same 'level' of achievement as getting an A at A2-level. So in the same way the QCA standards can be used to conclude that LCM exams are the same level as the ABRSM exams; they can be used to conclude that grade 1 is the same level as grade 3, or grade 6 is the same level as grade 8. I get the impression that the main purpose of QCA and the National Qualifications Framework is to ensure quality assurance for those passing the exams (i.e. if you're good enough to pass exam X with grade Y you will if you take it) rather than saying that the exams are the same.

I have no direct experience of LCM grade exams whatsoever, but judging from what people have said, I wouldn't personally take one as they don't seem to be respected as well as the other boards and it sounds like the standard may be misleading: an exam is as good as people percieve it to be. I do not, however, know this for certain, but ultimately the way the qualification is seen is what it's worth. Trinity grade exams, on the other hand, tend to be generally thought of as being the same level as the AB's: I don't think I would actually change to Trinity, mostly out of the familiarity, greater popularity (and of course generosity in providing this forum ) of the AB, but I certainly wouldn't think that their qualifications are a lower level because people have given me the impression that they're not. Really it's as simple as that.

The argument about the LCM exams being kinder for less-able children certainly has a potential problem (if indeed these exams are easier): the children will be very upset when they (almost inevitably) find out that their grade 8 distinction is not the same as their friends' after they've worked so hard for it and believed they were doing well. This is why this topic, which has come up before, is such a thorny issue. It would seem that just doing the AB exams but at a lower grade, with more fun inbetween, would be a more motivating route in the long run.

I agree it IS heartbreaking when people run down a qualification that you're working VERY hard for.

I have passed AB Grade 8 theory and practical both with distinction and the theory part of ALCM diploma with 90%, so.... in the summer when I do the Practical, we'll see if this London College really is as easy to please as you all say !

I hope so. Although I might as well throw the certificate away....

I have entered pupils for LCM examinations for many years. Four years ago I accepted two pupils who wished to eneter for ABRSM examinations. This did not bother me. However when the results were made available, I was shocked to find that the girl who had worked hard had earned the same marks, a pass, as her brother who had made little effort. Moreover at the same examination period and with the same examiner the brother had, on a wind instrument, gained a distinction, for which he had by his own admission , made little effort. Moreover a colleague who normally entered pupils through the local centre, as a board tutor, but who also entered pupils privately, found that there was no comparison between their results. I was subsequently told that ABRSM 'old school' examiners differentiated between entrants, and it certainly seemed so. My experience with LCM is that examiners judge pupils on their merit.

What do you mean by "as a board tutor", as opposed to "entering privately"? Also, what do you mean by "differentiating between entrants"? I am particularly interested in this type of thing at the minute, as I am very undecided as to where to where to enter my pupils in the future. I always used Guildhall in the past, for various reasons that I won't bore you with now; apparently Guildhall in mainland UK has been on the decline in recent years, but in NI we had one of the biggest centres. Anyway, Guildhall, as such, has now gone - or will be gone at the end of this year. For the last few sessions I have entered pupils in ABRSM, Trinity, LCM and Guildhall, depending on syllabus, dates, etc, but can't face continuing to keep track of all the different dates and requirements, so if you, or anyone else has any other experience like this, I'd be keen to hear it. I know that the majority of those who use this forum are great advocates of AB, but I'd be keen to hear from those who have extensive experience ot them all. I am aware, by the way, that Trinity only make SR compulsory in the upper grades now, and this would not affect my decision - I would continue to teach it regardless, and allow people to play to their strengths in exams. I think that LCM, incidentally, provides the best choice of repertoire, from which everyone can find something that they enjoy.

I have usually entered my pupils for AB exams, simply because I did them myself and around here they are well accepted. However, I have recently had a couple of pupils for whom AB grade 1 would have been too difficult and on advice from a more experienced colleague who uses LCM I entered one of the pupils for grade 1. She took ages to work for it, genuinely working hard, and took the exam at Christmas. She was unwell on the day, high temp. headache "flu" symptoms and her mother said she had not played at all well (could hear through wall).

I spent an anxious few weeks chewing my fingernails because I knew she was borderline at the best of times. However, she passed with flying colours - can't remember the category, but it was honours or something. My conclusion has to be that the standard is more forgiving than AB and for that reason I shall use it for the Step 1 & 2 exams as well as possibly lower grades.

The pupils that I am thinking about would probably not go on to higher grades anyway. I shall be upfront to parents about what I think about the standard. I doubt that I would use it for pupils who were working for the higher grades, but I think it has merit for pupils who have been working hard and would benefit from entering for an exam. and who would derive some satisfaction from passing and receiving their certificate.

I have passed one or two exams including LGSM but here I am going to make some comments about ones I failed - particularly grade 7 piano which i have now failed six times over a period of many years (after scraping through grade 6). The only one I did adequate practice for was the last time, when I entered with LCM. Anyway, the results were:

Spring 1989 - ABRSM - 85 (ouch!)
Summer 1989 - ABRSM (same pieces) - 92
Spring 1990 - Trinity - 61 (pass mark is 65)
Summer 1990 - Trinity - 63
Autumn 1990 - Trinity - 63
Autumn 2005 - LCM - 59 (pass mark is 100)

Now the LCM pieces certainly were a lot easier than ABRSM or Trinity but the standard of marking seemed to be much higher, with comments on the mark sheet appearing to bear little resemblance to the actual performance at grade 7 level. Now, it would be easy to write such a comment off as wishful thinking on the part of a failed candidate, but the plain fact is that i have an LSGM in recorder, a Trinity College Performer's Certificate in voice (both these passed in 1993, thus a couple of years of general musical development on from most of my grade 7 attempts) and grade 8 in both viola and flute, and therefore really I should have some general idea of standards. For all five previous attempts there had been one piece I just couldn't play and only one piece that I was remotely happy with before entering the exam. This time I was reasonably happy about all three pieces - and that despite having studied to a higher level on other instruments that I had before the previous exams, in other words my own benchmark standards should have gone up if anything rather than down.

Of course I might just have had a rogue examiner - no way of knowing.

Liz

Could you not just enter them for the AB prep test? Or Trinity Initial?

Also, people who think LCM graded exams are easier, does the same apply to LCM diplomas? Anyone have any experience in the way of comparison?

I enter some pupils for prep test, but it doesn't have the pass/fail satisfaction. I use it mainly for familiarisation for young pupils. Have not tried the Trinity Initial - what's it like, will it exist after the Guildhall/Trinity "amalgamation"?

The reason I did ALCM performance as opposed to ATCL was the theory - not that I was keen to do this myself, but my teacher felt that this would be most beneficial. I was led to believe that the playing standard required in both would be the same, but have really no way of knowing for sure.

I did grades 6-8 Flute with LCM as I didn't have grade 5 theory to continue with AB. When comparing the syllabus's I found little difference between the pieces and just before my grade 8 exam i was informed (by a professional Flautist) that my playing would have achieved a distinction with AB when I only got a merit with LCM. I also did grade 6 Violin with AB and played terribly on the day. I achieved distinction (same as grade 6 flute with LCM) which I honestly believe I did not deserve, judging by my playing on the day compared to the flute exam. This showed me that AB are actually easier in some ways. I also found that my flute playing was of a much higher standard than friends who did the AB equivalent grade.

LCM's marking scheme is, in my opinion, much fairer. More marks are rewarded for the pieces instead of the aural tests and sight reading. This is possibly why some people pass with higher marks than others. Another good thing with the LCM exams is the Viva Voce, I think this helps the student become more musically knowledgable.

I only ever did three flute grades - 6 7 and 8. For both 7 and 8 I just got a merit (120 for 7 with the AB, 75 for 8 with Trinity). I had never had a flute lesson in my life and my tone was atrocious.

Liz

My son was due to do grade 5 with LCM when he had to change teachers. His new teacher did ABRSm exams it was a year before his new teacher decided he was ready for the exam. I suspect it was as much the level of teaching rather than the standard of exams as he didn't learn many other pieces betwenn exams.
There may have been a difference in the past as I have a friend who passed grade 8 LCM years ago (approx 13), then changed teachers and struggled with ABRSM grade 6 level work.

The ABRSM are happy to take Grade 8 Practical from Guildhall School of Music & Drama or the
London College of Music & Media as a substitute for grade 8 ABRSM for the Dip ABRSM.

If they are happy the grade 8 carries as much weight, I have no worries about entering students for London College or ABRSM.

I agree that the marking is different, having just taken a grade 6 LCM I am thrilled with the result. Comparing the Grade 7 (partly due to this thread partley due to having doen the CT course I may move to AB) I noticed that Greig Butterfly is on both ABRSM and LCM exams; maybe I will do both eams it will be interesting to compare the results. - maybe I learn how to play it first

I have used LCM exams for many years, and am very happy with their standards, marking schemes etc. Perhaps those of you who feel the need to knock these exams would like another challenge similar to the grade one challenge. Why not take a grade exam or diploma of LCM and then compare it to your usual board? I worked very hard for my F.L.C.M. (and my L.T.C.L. too amongst others) and was delighted to pass and to be awarded fellowship of the college. I consider myself to be far better qualified than many so called music teachers of my acquaintance who are teaching instruments without even possesing a grade ONE on that instrument! I think that recorder "teachers" are probably the worst offenders. Being able to play one woodwind or stringed instrument does not equip one fully to teach another.

I am not a teacher, but I have noticed that many of the grade 8 cello pieces, for LCM eg allegro appassionata by saint saens are exactly the same as AB.
I once met an examiner for the LCM at one of their meetings. He was a clarinet and Saxaphone player, and seemed like a reasonable sort of person, but as the LCM is so much smaller, it is not always easy to find a centre within a viable distance anyway .Also as other people have said about LCM, I think that the idea of the smaller syallbus ie the leisure play, is good for us adults who have less time to practice. No disrespect at all to the learning of scales though!
Personally, I have queried all exams I have done , whether I have done well or less well, so I guess it is a bit like buying clothes in the shops, it is what is right for the person!

Well said ... (but no-one does ukulele grades )