Hi all! Was just wondering how everyone thinks Chopin's Op. 66 should be interpreted. How do YOU interpret it? 'Slow, expressive and soft', or 'fast, loud, angry and energetic'? I personally can do both 'styles' but am ambivalent as to which style sounds better. What does everyone think? Vote and then reply as to why you chose that option Thanks!

I think that because this piece starts with a perfect cadence, I see it as like an extension from another piece, venturing into the unknown. I think it's a rather mysterious piece with it's rhythms.

That's a very interesting way of looking at it, Oddball! Never thought about it like that myself before. Thanks for the reply

I thought that was very imaginitive too! I voted for "neither of the above". I think it should be fast, but not angry. And not all loud - urgent, yes, and full of contrasts, but light under the fingers - except for those accented notes, obviously, that carry the melody through, and the contrasting pesante section.

Question for Chopincloud - the descending unison octaves at the end of the first section - when you play this, do you emphasise the LH, the RH or is it balanced? Also do you play the LH staccato
or do you play these octaves quite heavily? They're loud, obviously, and I know the pedal is used, but the touch still makes a difference to what it sounds like.

(You're going to start charging me consultation fees soon... )

Haha...should be played soft and fast...and sometimes slow and Angrily...so both...

My interpretation - don't play a thing of it

Why?? It's a great piece though
one of my favourite

I just thought of another couple of analogies.

1/ A river - starts as a sparkling, tinkling stream with a sense of urgency - occasional waterfall, rapids - flows through lush, verdant pastures in the middle - back to dangerous waters - and ultimately meets the ocean, at ease with itself.

2/ A rollercoaster - this is what it's like when I play it, anyway, because you never know the minute it's going to fly off the rails!

Patricia,

I really liked #1 - very imaginative.

The opening and closing sections of this piece are not unlike the style of the C# minor Etude, Op 10 no 4.

Interesting comparison.

Interesting question. When *I* play it, I tend to accent the first note of the sets of fours for the RH (the one played with the middle finger -- it is marked with an accent sign on my score). My RH softens towards the second half of the four bars when the LH takes over (here my score has accents for the LH as well). So I guess LH crescendo as RH descrendos, if that makes sense?

As for playing staccato, I think I tend to play the LH sort of tenuto, not fully staccato, although my version has staccato marks for the LH. This is especially so towards the second half of the four bars when the LH is accented. My version also has staccato marks for the RH pinky notes.

I also play a slight ritardando for the last 4 notes on the RH, just before the Largo, to make a 'smooth entry' into the Largo.

I do not profess to be an expert on this piece (or piano-playing in general), but this is how I interpret it. Patricia, how do you play it?


I'm not good enough to charge consultation fees!


Number 2 sums me up as well!

I haven't tackled an Etude yet; I want to get to grips with this first. But I was at a Chopin concert in Paris a few years ago and it was the Etude that he played at the end which really grabbed me. I can't remember the names of either the pianist or the Etude, but I'd never heard it before. I got the feeling he was a bit bored with all the other more well-known stuff, but he really got the sweat flowing with the Etude.

[quote name='chopincloud' date='May 7 2006, 01:56 PM' post='317897']
[quote name='Patricia' post='317705' date='May 7 2006, 08:04 PM']
Question for Chopincloud - the descending unison octaves at the end of the first section - when you play this, do you emphasise the LH, the RH or is it balanced? Also do you play the LH staccato
or do you play these octaves quite heavily? They're loud, obviously, and I know the pedal is used, but the touch still makes a difference to what it sounds like.
[/quote]
Interesting question. When *I* play it, I tend to accent the first note of the sets of fours for the RH (the one played with the middle finger -- it is marked with an accent sign on my score). My RH softens towards the second half of the four bars when the LH takes over (here my score has accents for the LH as well). So I guess LH crescendo as RH descrendos, if that makes sense?

As for playing staccato, I think I tend to play the LH sort of tenuto, not fully staccato, although my version has staccato marks for the LH. This is especially so towards the second half of the four bars when the LH is accented. My version also has staccato marks for the RH pinky notes.

I also play a slight ritardando for the last 4 notes on the RH, just before the Largo, to make a 'smooth entry' into the Largo.

I do not profess to be an expert on this piece (or piano-playing in general), but this is how I interpret it. Patricia, how do you play it?

***
(I haven't yet figured out how to quote sections of posts - it's all or nothing!)

I agree with emphasising the first of each set of 4 - though my score doesn't have accents here - and with everything else you said in this paragraph. I'm feeling more inclined to play those LH octaves staccato, as long as the right ones are emphasised. (It's easier to make them short and sharp as well, in order to get moving towards the next one!)

I slow down just before the Largo too - and I really love the B#.

I hate the way you never know how much of what's on your score is editorial, and how much is the composer's own instructions!

What are "pinky notes"??

I agree! Really annoying. That's why I usually buy the 'urtext' versions, although the particular book I'm playing the fantasie-impromptu from is not 'urtext', so it very well might be the editor's decision to put in those staccatos and accents! I've got the urtext version for all of Chopin's nocturnes, waltzes and etudes though


Oh, the notes played with the fifth finger (the 3rd note of the sets of fours in the RH). Sorry! I didn't know how to describe it in a more eloquent way.

---

Oh and about quoting parts of a post, just delete the parts which are unnecessary? If I want to quote something I usually just click on the 'Quote+' button for the person's post which I want to quote, and then click the 'Add Reply' button at the bottom right of the page. Then I can edit the post to my heart's content with the post editor thing

Chopincloud - What speed can you play this at? I'm ALMOST safe at 120 crotchets per minute - if I'm not too fussy about clarity, which I am usually fussy about - but I think this is still too slow for the descending chromatic scale. However, I was pretty pleased when I put the metronome on just now, as this actually constitutes allegro! I'm sticking to this for a while, then I'm going to try to raise the stakes.

'Cause (I think it's) a horrendously difficult piece to play, especially to play it well

I play the piece at about 170 crotchets per minute -- but yes I need a lot more practising to get all the notes sharp and clear (and something I wouldn't be embarrassed to perform in front of an audience)! I sometimes practise the piece at a slower tempo, staccato, LH separate, RH separate, etc... to improve on technique.

By the way, on my score, it has instructions to play the 'fast' part faster the second time around 'Presto -- poco piu mosso del primo tempo'. Is that what the Italian means?

Very impressive! I'm still at 120 and will be for a week or two yet, but I've (tentatively) suggested it for a small concert mid-June, so I'd better get my skates on! It's too late now to make a decent job of anything else. It'll just be me, my old teacher and a bunch of our more advanced students, so I can't really just churn out a Grade 6 piece, or something I've played in the past. So I've put myself in the position of sinking or swimming. I've also got an organ exam coming up - if all else fails, I could get a friendly nurse to put my wrist in plaster and I'll just enjoy the supper...

Don't worry! We all know you'll do fine By the way when you're ready, you can put up a recording on the forum recording site!

Some day... I played it for a pupil and parent tonight and it was pretty disastrous! Things can only get better!

I just picked this up again after having put it aside for some time (goes with the mothball thread I suppose). In answer to the question, Chopin generally is hard to interpret but I find listening to Ashkenazy's rendition must be somewhat close to how he played it. There is never anger in Chopin's pieces (it's not really Beethoven or Lizst) but rather anxiety so I think aside from soft and expressive there should be anxiety particularly before the Forte descending run, in the development of the initial phrase on F# minor, C# major (b7). A little before the Largo section.

Apart from that I have a major problem with this, which is physical pain. I hope Chopincloud or someone else can answer that. I can play this quite accurately and give it as much expression as I can baring in mind few can play this piece or any of Chopin how he inteded them (buy Chopin pianist and Teacher if you have the chance for his teaching techniques on the piano). As I get AFTER the section in A major (arpeggios in A major with added 6th) into the re-introduction of the initial theme, my left hand slows down considerably due to pain in my tendons. Then I have numbness in my arm I can feel the tendons aching and have to rest for a while (thats why I'm typing this now). Why does this happen? I am playing a digital piano and thought that the action on that was too heavy. I am not sure if its being out of practice or the piano's action is too heavy to play this.

Should I rest it completely or is pain an indication of muscles strengthening? Hope you can answer, sorry about the essay...

Composing Head - Do you have the name and/or publisher of the book you mentioned - "Chopin Pianist and Teacher"?

I'm afraid I can't be of much use to you in answer to the rest of your post, as I have never suffered from sore hands. Did this happen to you when you played it in the past, or is this pain new? There is another thread about this somewhere at the minute, which you might find useful to read.

Here are two books I found useful both published by Cambridge university press, "Chopin Pianist and teacher" written by Jean Jaques Eigeldinger, "Chopin Studies (2nd volume)" is compiled by John Rink and Jim Samson.






The pain happened with stretching in the past but it went after practice, now its more pronounced...I think I'm just out of practice to be honest...

Thank you!!!

Back to the tempo bit...
Chopincloud -
I have just attempted to play this at 170 crotchets per minute and can state with absolute certainty and conviction that there is no possibilty on earth or in heaven of my ever being able to do this! There are a couple of bits here and there that I can get through at 150 - no more than 3 bars at a time - but neither my fingers nor my brain will ever be able move fast enough to get 170!

In your honest opinion (or anybody else's honest opinion!) would it be sacrilege to perform this at, say, 125 crotchets per minute?

I feel that overall, it is quite a deep and sophisticated piece, especially seeing as it is Chopin. I actually voted neither: in section A, it is mainly quiet and smooth despite being fast, except for the end part of it, and in the middle, which is obviously a contrast. The B section, surprisingly enough, is not quiet and delicate, which is the misconception I think, especially seeing as it is the emotionally, soppy major bit, in the middle of many Chopin piece, if you would like to call it that - the dynamic, according to the book I have, actually says the section is to be played moderately loudly - mf. Composing Head is quite write in what he/she says overall I feel. Chopin really is never played 'angrily' - and yes, it is meant to be played 'anxiously', similarly to 'agitatedly'. I think elegance is the key to a certain extent.

In answer of Composing Head's question, I think it is probably just stamina in playing the piece - you can pretty much expect to get tired arms with a Chopin piece, and the only way around it is probably more practice. It certainly would explain why Chopin could never last through his own concerts! However, I'm no medical expert: maybe someone else could give you better advice on this area - after all, repetitive strain on fingers and the arm can be quite serious.

Obviously, I can't really talk - I love to play it fast, loud, angry, and energetic, because it is more fun, although I'm pretty sure that is not the way to play it. Oh yes, I'd better point out I'm no expert in this piece before anyone asks!

In answer to Patricia's point, I do not think it is truly sacrilege to play at, say 125 crotchets per minute! Providing you plan to work your way up that is! You are currently Grade 8 Distinction, if I'm correct, so that means that you are now ready to take on the challenge of playing Fantasie Impromptu, moreso than I for example, who is actually aiming to take the Grade 8 exam. There is nothing really wrong with playing '125 crotchets per minute' I think, providing you are doing it as part of interpretation, and not in aid of wimping out in trying to take it up to speed!

The main way to do this would be to play the piece, bar by bar, and then increase the metronome beat by 5 each time, until you reach about 150, in which case, 2 should be fine, and then about 160, work your way up in 1 beats, until you reach 180. I mean, if I'm able to play it without too much trouble at 150 or so (don't want to sound too arrogant in case someone challenges me and asks for a recording ) then, you should be able to too! I can play it pretty roughly at 180, it just sounds it bit mechanical... Just take it bar at a time. If you can't do it immediately, focus on some other pieces, and over time, you'll find you'll be able to do it. I mean, sometimes, I really used to struggle with some pieces, so I moved on, and later found out how they were now comparitively so easy that I could sight read them. So, if at first you don't prevail, try, try again! And if you don't prevail after trying, trying and trying again, then move on, until you feel ready to accept the challenge once more!

~Wobby~

Well I guess no one can really answer that question fully without having heard you play first But in my opinion, if it sounds good to you then it should sound good for the audience too! I have heard some slow recordings of the piece by professional pianists and I would say it sounds just as good slow as it does fast, just in different ways!

Thanks for those replies, guys. In my heart of hearts I feel it ought to be a fair bit faster than 125, but I don't know if it's realistic for me! Having said that I've been seriously daunted when I've first listened to recordings of my pieces in the past, and some of them now seem easy. I'm not turning back, though; I've put too much into it thus far. What I might do is give a "crotchet=125" rendition of it this time, and then aim for an encore in about 6 months' time at a quicker pace. There's nothing that sounds worse than somebody playing something at a pace that they're obviously uncomfortable with - I'd rather aim for precision and detail. It's just a question of whether 125 is an insult to Chopin's intentions!

Post a recording up!!! (If you want some feedback.)

I'll think about it! But don't hold your breath - it won't be today or tomorrow! And I'd have to consult with somebody about the technological side of things...

[quote name='chopincloud' post='318530' date='May 8 2006, 11:54 AM']

[/quote]


By the way, on my score, it has instructions to play the 'fast' part faster the second time around 'Presto -- poco piu mosso del primo tempo'. Is that what the Italian means?
[/quote]
I think it means " a little bit more than the first time"..

I think so too.

[quote name='La_Chopiniste_' date='May 13 2006, 03:00 PM' post='321605']
[quote name='chopincloud' post='318530' date='May 8 2006, 11:54 AM']

[/quote]
By the way, on my score, it has instructions to play the 'fast' part faster the second time around 'Presto -- poco piu mosso del primo tempo'. Is that what the Italian means?
[/quote]
I think it means " a little bit more than the first time"..
[/quote]

Literally it means "a little bit faster than the first time round (tempo primo)", presumably more agitation and 'pathos' than in the initial theme.

I heard someone play this this afternoon and make it look completely effortless. She was 18

That's the secret of any good performance - making it look effortless! I was once told that if someone told you it looked easy, then you'd done a good job!

Seriously though - that's what made me want to master this - watching, and listening to, someone who made it look so effortless. And that's the style of it - it's not passionate or intense; it's a fantasy - an emotional abstraction - a meander through dreamland.

Waffle ended, Patricia.

Yep, that's pretty much was it was - it was enchanting. A little sickening that it was an 18 year old playing it who had also just played Brahms and Bach beautifully and been equally amazing on the clarinet, but I resisted the urge to kill her for being too talented for words She was quite astounding.

Brief update:- I'm not going to be playing this at afore-mentioned recital, and I'm not going to be playing it at 125 crotchets per minute. I've come to the conclusion that this IS an insult to Chopin's intentions. I'm going to pull out something that I've played in the past for the June concert, and aim for November with the Impromptu. With a couple of glasses of wine in the bank, I threw caution to the wind a short time ago - played a large number of wrong notes - but was able to demonstrate to myself that I CAN keep it moving at about 170 - just not WELL yet. I've also decided that the metronome is going out the window; this piece depends on rubato as much as on speed and precision, and the metronome kills it - at any speed. So that, folks, is that! I'm not going to comment any more on this - I've probably bored everyone silly with it. Back to the practice.

I'm currently practising this piece....does anyone have any recording of it which I can listen to?? Thanks.

You might find it on Naxos.com, where you can listen to excerpts of their entire catalogue for free (and for a small annual fee you can listen to the lot - amazing).

I think if you try it too quickly it can lose clarity, but this depends largely on how good your piano is.
132 -140 is about my speed for safety and not lose clarity. Also some performers over - pedal it and this also loses clarity too.
The same thing happens in some performances of the Revolutionary Etude, it doesnt have to go at a breakneck speed.

I am starting to worry if I'm playing it too fast....
It's really easy to be play on a piano which has a light touch, but not on a piano that has a hard touch...it is really weird...

Go to www.classicalarchives.com and listen to the live recording of this by Yuri Rozum. Everyone who plays this interprets it differently; this is probably one of my favourite interpretations - and is a good example of why Chopin shouldn't/can't be played with the metronome on!