I'd like to discuss a few points of ornamentation in Scarlatti sonatas - but it might be a bit boring and tedious for this forum?
In particular I'm looking at K308 and K309. Just for starters....am I right in thinking that the mordent-looking symbol is actually a trill starting on the upper note and that it needs to last for the duration of the note ornamented (even if that note is a minim)? Should I be finishing the trill in any particualr way?

I'd love such a serious academic discussion on the forum - it wouldn't be tedious at all, and besides where else could one hope to discuss such matters . It beats word games any day .

I'll have a look this evening, I'm playing some Scarlatti for my g8 harpsichord; and at home I have the full set of Scarlatti sonatas and a few reference books on historical performance which I will consult.

Great!! Just the sort of reply I wanted!

Ok..so..here goes...
K309, bar 1..(a very good place to start!)
Am I right in thinking Domenico was a bit sloppy with his appog and his acciacs? Some of these "grace" notes (for want of a better word) have 2 lines, and some have 1 (compare bars 36 and 37 for example).
Should I be playing the right hand of bar one: crotchet rest, crotchet, semi-quaver A, semi-quaver G, quaver F, crotchet? I have already reached the conclusion that ornamented notes start ON the beat, so the A must coincide with the third beat.

K309, bar 4 - as I understand it, the squiggle which looks like a mordent (upper) is actually a trill lasting for 2 whole beats in bar 4 and finishing on the C quaver of bar 5?

Can I ask you a harpsichordist question?
In bars 10 to 20, I'm assuming you can't get much in the way of variation in dynamics? In which case, how would you achieve some sort of "interest". I am playing these on the piano, and I know Scarlatti had access to an example of an early piano...but we don't know which instrument he was writing these bars for!

All thoughts welcome!!

I think it's meant to be an acciacatura; if you wish to place the A on the beat in your interpretation, it needs to be substantially shorter than the G, just 'pinched'.



Yes, it's a trill beginning on C; not the D, as one might normally expect - there's a C appogiatura onto the trill, indicating that the C should begin on the beat, followed by a DCDC... trill as one would normally expect.




Using a combination of varying stacatto lengths, primarily. I also might consider shifting manuals - play 10-13 on the lower 8', 14-15 on the upper 8'. Mostly articulation though, having two manuals is a luxury.

Many thanks YAP. That's really helpful.

In K309, bar 4 you say there's a C appog onto the trill, so the trill begins on the C. In my edition (Kirkpatrick) there's no appog written in - just a C crtochet on beat 2 followed by a C minim with the "trill squiggle" over the top. I don't quite understand what you mean about starting on the C - I thought these things tended to start on the upper note at this time?


Also, would you mind having a look at K308, bars 51-53 and then 55-57. Should I be making an audible difference between acciacs with 2 lines and acciacs with 1 line? e.g. bar 51 has 2 acciacs, 1 with 2 lines and 1 with only 1 line.

I REALLY appreciate your thoughts on this! I'm hoping to put the pair of sonatas into my Dip programme....but I would like to be sure that I am actually playing what is written!!

It sounds like you have a better edition, with authentic symbols too. OK, if that's what it says, begin the trill on the upper note; that's what the examiners would be looking for when presented with that score.



In my edition they only have one line in either case. I'd play the all as a consistent 'pinched' acciacatura onto the written note, in this case something like demisemiquaver dotted-semiquaver.



No problem. I'd be interested to know whether you plan to add extra ornamentation on repeats, and what sort you plan to do .

Oooooooooh! Now that sounds like a challenge (and a half!) .

I know the simplistic "stick in something fancy before the cadence" idea (from recorder and oboe playing), but I've not yet decided what to do with these sonatas. So are you suggesting that I should add in ornaments (only?) when I do the repeats? Are there any "rules" for when/where/how much to add? Or is this all about me the performer and my "interpretation"?
I have got a copy of the ABRSM Performer's guide to Baroque - I hope it will help!

Have a look here:

http://idrs.colorado.edu/Publications/Jour...L3/baroque.html

It's a pretty good introduction, in particular the figure which gives examples of what one could do. I'm doing a Scarlatti sonata for my g8 harpsichord and I'll be ornamenting the repeats - it wouldn't be expected on a piano g8, but if I were doing Scarlatti at DipABRSM level or higher on piano I'd ornament repeats.

Thanks, YAP. Not only did you point me to an interesting article, but you also reminded me that old editions of IDRS are available to non-members....and I've now had a good look at what's available and found some great stuff on bassoon fingerings (for when I'm not at the piano!).

My thoughts on ornamentation are gradually crystallising!!