Violin Finger Board surface, are the surface meant to be straight? I just got this wonderful looking brand new china made violin. It has been giving me so much trouble ever since I got it. It play and it makes the sounds but its hard to play.

I have complained to the seller before about uneven nut and high strings:


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Got the violin thank you very much. Every thing is good apart from I noticed the gap between the string are not quite right at the neck piece, you can see the string slot between the A-E is about 1mm less, and the G & D placed about 1mm toward the right. The bridge is a bit high and A-E is 1mm wider again but the bridge are easier to be corrected however the neck isn't. I just wonder are they all like that??
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and my replay were:

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It is normal for the bridhe to be high as all violins need to be set up before playing. As for the gaps in the strings, you can slide the strings to the side the get the correct spacing. I have quite chunky fingers so I have my strings spaced well apart but my young son who has very slim fingers has his strings very close to each other.
To lower the bridge, place a piece of sand paper on the body where the bridge would be and gently rub the bridge over the sand paper until it is at a height that suits you.
Hope this helps.
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which i did, i sand down about 0.75-1mm off from the bottom of the bridge. I know the correct height on the at the end of the finger board should be 3.25mm E string and 5.5 on G. And i got pretty closer now than before, but playing is still not right. So i check the fingerboard, first I have loosen up the string and pressed on first and the last but on finger board with my nail and see if the board surface would line up, but i saw the middle has a gap. So I try again with a metal ruler, and i found out the middle section is lower inward by about 1mm. There fore the end is curved up.

So can someone tell me if it meant to be? before i shoot to my ebay seller?

here is the listing of the same item
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...=ADME:B:EF:UK:1

Added pic



Thanks in advance

Michael

In short, no, the fingerboard should not "sag" like this in the middle. Could be one of two possibilities: the fingerboard is warped, or, the fingerboard hasn't been levelled correctly. In luthier terms the levelling of a fingerboard is called 'shooting' - something you would no doubt like to do to the ebay seller!

From the picture it's hard to say which of the above it is, but I would err on the side of a warped fingerboard, rather than it not being level. Regrettably, much of the wood that is used in these instruments hasn't been dried correctly or for the right length of time. China also suffers a lot of high humidity, which can also lead to warping.

I suggest you contact the seller immediately.

Elizabeth Ward (Liz), who sells a wide range of violins, runs the very reputable and highly recommended Elida Trading and regularly posts on this forum, is an authority in the horror of purchasing violins from ebay.

I feel certain she will pick up on this posting at some point.

The fingerboard is NOT straight along its length, but your picture shows too much dip.

The clearance of the strings at the nut (upper saddle-- at the pegbox end) should be the thickness of a business card. There is supposed to be a "dip" or slope in the fingerboard with the maximum clearance at the 4th position then decreasing clearance to the end of the fingerboard. The clearance at the end of the fingerboard is as the previous writer stated when the slope is right: 3.5 mm on E rising to 5.5 mm on G plus or minus a bit depending on the kind of string you use. Metal strings can be lower, gut strings higher, perlon in the middle. You cannot do these measurements if the slope of the fingerboard is wrong.

One can place a straight edge against any string inside the nut. The ends of the ruler will contact the ebony but there will be a gap with the greatest distance at the 4th position. The slope is gradual to both sides. The G will have a deeper dip than the E.

There are a couple of reasons for all this:

1. When you play an open string, the string vibrates the widest at the center. The low strings vibrate wider than the high ones.

2. As you stop the string with fingers, you need a "downhill" shape in front of your contact point to provide a free vibration of the string, thus the descending shape in the low positions. As you approach the bridge, the height of the bridge assures this clearance so the dip can decrease in the high positons.

There should never be a "hump" in the fingerboard-- a high point part way down the fingerboard. A decent piece of real ebony will ordinarily stay put. Never buy a factory instrument that does not have real ebony.

Cutting down the height of the bridge should not be done at the bottom (foot end) of the bridge, assuming that the feet have been fitted properly. the sandpaper methods mentioned should not be used. Trim at the top of the bridge. Once you have trimmed the top, some thinning of the profile of the bridge will be necessary and the notches re-marked.

There are some amazing bargains to be had from China these days. Almost always the buyer has to spend an amount to have pegs, nut, fingerboard, bridge and post adjusted. Sometimes it's worth it; sometimes not. the cost of a setup in the USA these days is $150-200. Usually the factory strings are also quite horrible and have to be replaced; There's another $40+.

I worked a couple of years doing minor repairs in a violin shop. There are all too few repairpersons who really get everything really right. Usually if the luthier is also a trained player, things get done right. The proper adjustment of the string length is crucial. When everything is right, it feels right. Bad adjustment means the player has to work harder--sometimes leading to physical injury. When you find a repairperson you like, you'll never want to change.

Good luck

Gabe Villasurda

Thank you both for replying.

That is so complex... actually the picture in very closed up so it might be worst than its look. its like about 1mm at the middle section, and get less toward end and the nut. May be its the string that's cause the problem, as its metal so require less cleareance, i actually turn the bride wrong with round to try to see if its make any different with the lower G, and its does play just better and easier also tone become more real.so it think its better for the g string to be around 3.5 mm.

I am sure the bridge is not right and so is the nut... well when i said the gap i mean the spacing between each string on the nut not the clearence from touching the finger board. yeah the strings are not centered + e and a are closer by about 0.75mm comparing with other too. Is it possible to cut new slot and filled the old ones with putty and darking with shoes polish or paint?? actually i check the space for beween g and e they are dead right. but they are not evenly spaced out, is it wrong to have them wider for like 2mm for example?

I am new to violin, i think i will either get a new one so i can compare with and fix this one and sell it off or just fix it for myself to learn. But the problem is i have not touch any other violin before. I can get some scale out from the violin very soon after i got it but that is because i research a lot in to it and i play the chinese violin called Erhu.

Thank you very much for answering my questions

Michael

All fingerboards have a slight dip in the middle - this is called the scoop by luthiers and it's a way to stop the string from going flat to the fingerboard and buzzing when you're playing. The fingerboard should NEVER be totally straight. That being said - the scoop on yours is very pronounced which would give you the feeling of a high bridge even if the strings are at the right level at the bottom of the finger board. For around 25 GBP a good luthier will rescoop the fingerboard for you so it is correct. I had to have this done on a violin I bought a year or so ago and it made a considerable difference.

Allan

I would think this fingerboard will need some serious 'shooting' before anything else. But the economics of spending money on it are debatable.

ED: Just to clarify, in the UK a luthier will 'shoot' a fingerboard, ie. plane it down to take out irregularities and anything that would cause the strings to buzz. We certainly don't call it a scoop. Perhaps this a terminology thing, whereby the UK uses a different descriptive compared to the US or the continent.

Michael, I should think it's going to be quite uneconomic to do anything much with that violin. That said, I doubt if it's really unplayable - remember that as a beginner you yourself will be a major limiting factor. If the bridge and nut height are now correct, i can't really see why it should cause problems. That dip in the fignerboard looks to me to be higher up than you are going to be playing for some time.

Bottom line? It's pretty. If the bow is brazilwood, or the violin is a quality instrument, then I'm a famous violinist. But I don't know of any source where we could get violins direct from China with those decorative pegs and sell than for £60 without making a crashing loss. He's found a cheap source somewhere and, I'm afraid, the reason it's cheap is becoming obvious. He says they are all like that - well if we got a batch like that we wouldn't be going back, though you can usually "train" the makers into what you want after you've had a few orders from them. That does, of course, require at least enough knowledge to be able to play the instruments so you can spot the problems. It may be that your seller doesn't play.

Liz

well i have wrote to the selling and complain a big time and ask for a refund, but i dull anything would happen?? am looking at another violin at the moment. One its actually playable for up to 150 pound including setup. My local music store does a Stentor student 1 and 2 for 70 and 100 pound that is setup by them to sell. Also asking for price for Stentor Conservatoire. but i really don't have much to spend, around 100 would be happy, up to 150 if its good, may be 300 if its really really good and i know it would last. I have actually looked at liz site and almost went for the one she has on e-bay.. yes liz i was the guy who ask you for the price with the upgrade string last weekend.

Thanks for all

Michael

Michael, look round a bit before you part with any more money. I know that a string specialist near me does instruments that are much higher quality than a stentor, for about £200, so I'm not sure whether you'd be getting good value for money at £150. (I'm sure others are better placed to comment, but that's my sense).

There's another point to be aware of here, which applies both in shops and on ebay, and that is this: "set up" means two different things. On ebay, and probably in most non-specialist shops, it simply means that the bridge is in the right place. On the other hand it can mean that about 90 minutes work has been done to it, fitting a new bridge, sorting out the pegs, adjusting the soundpost and the length of the tailgut, and doing something with the fingerboard if needed. obviously in the second case the shop has the right to expect to sell the instruments for more. Then you come down to the dilemma:

Is it better to buy a £70 instrument that has had a set-up and is now £150, or is it better to buy a £150 instrument in the first place?

Opinions on this will differ. To my mind, whatever you do to a £70 violin it's still a £70 violin, and the other thing is that if you ever come to sell it, you can only ever sell it as a used £70 violin, not a used £150 violin. The days of the totally unplayable cheap violin are almost over and these days most violins you buy new, from any source, really should be playable.

Now, having said all that, I do not rate your chances of getting any refund from the seller very highly. You certainly wouldn't get a refund from a bricks and mortar shop on a violin you had tried working on yourself. In law you have seven working days to return an item you have bought unseen from any business seller (except at an auction) for any reason at all, but it must be in the condition in which you bought it! On the other hand you could argue that the seller told you to do it. But then, a seller who told you to do something like that doesn't seem to me to be the sort of seller who is likely to give refunds in a hurry anyway (I've only just noticed the garbage he told you about the spacing on the strings, that is rather funny).

liz

It was Philip Archer - a luthier in Manchester - who told me that the dip of a fingerboard is called the scoop.

I also found the following information online:

http://reviews.ebay.co.uk/Violin-Viola-and...T:-1:LISTINGS:2

That being said, the scoop is over pronounced here. If you are seriously considering buying a violin of up to 300 in value - get one of Liz's Gligas - you won't regret it and it will be playable immediately upon receipt (she ships them bridge up and usually even tunes them so it should arrive ready to go).

Allan

I was thinking the same - for £300 you couldn't do much better than a Gliga, which will last you a long long time.

I begin to feel the same too as well

You have to pay to for what you want, although there should be best value for your money as well.

Liz can you tell me what is the different between ELIDA INTERMEZZO, JINYIN (250) and a Gems
2? which is the best?? I know it is a open question as they can be good at different thing.

As I memtion about I play the Erhu (chinese verion of violin), my teacher who can play all the chinese instruments is also a violinist, who is also lucky enough to own one of those 1 million pound violin. It would be interesting to let him try a GLIGA and see what he make of it

Michael

[quote name='Michael UK' date='May 14 2006, 12:25 PM' post='322169']

Liz can you tell me what is the different between ELIDA INTERMEZZO, JINYIN (250) and a Gems
2? which is the best?? I know it is a open question as they can be good at different thing.[/quote]
I have to be rather cautious because the new moderator is being very strict about aplying the no advertising rule. As a general principle, Chinese violins are usually louder and brighter than Romanian instruments, German instruments are also loud and bright but frankly they just don't compete these days, Czech violins come somewhere between Romanian and German in terms of tone quality - "quality" meaning "type of tone" here rather than being a value judgment - but again these days they just don't compete. In each case i'm talking about new instruments.[/quote]

[quote]As I memtion about I play the Erhu (chinese verion of violin), my teacher who can play all the chinese instruments is also a violinist, who is also lucky enough to own one of those 1 million pound violin. It would be interesting to let him try a GLIGA and see what he make of it
[/quote]

Sure would

Just let you guys know I have place an order for a Gems2

Michael

Good choice!

You won't be disappointed at all. The Gems is an excellent violin for the money.

Enjoy!

Allan

Well I hope so, I will either get my chinese music teacher to try it or the other guy in the class who is a grade 8 in violin. I just found out that his violin was made in 1909 in france and I was like Although he doesn't think its really special...

I guess there are so many factor in producing good sound on violin such as wood, strings, bow, the craft and age of the violin but most importantlt of all the person who play it.

So I guess you can't really compare violin, its like a partership, some couple work and some don't. l know either a Gems2 or even a french 1909 violin will make me sound good at this moment but what is important is to have something that I enjoy practicing on.

So finger cross with my Gems2 blind date!

Damn does it mean I am paying to have a date???

Am I Dreaming? Got a message back from the ebay seller!!

Glad you sorted something out, Michael.

Yeah all sorted, got my refund. Gems 2 coming tomorrow!

How are you getting on?

Sorry has taken so long to reply.

So about the gems 2 its great pretty little thing. I have had a 8th grade person looked at it. He think its nice although the bridge can do with some adjusting like making it lower and more curved so it less chance to bow 2 strings at once. Having said that its is fine playing like it is. Sound wise he think its nice but then he added its depend on personal taste. My chinese music tutor had a quick look at it but he didn't play. He say by the built of it, it is something people buy to replace the cheap first violin for mid grades and to keep, because by the time they get to grade 8 its will sound nice and ready for grade 8 level of music.

I personally really like the look and feel of it, it feel kinda romatic about it. The only fault i have found are 1-2 short brush hair has been varnished on the surface. And also on the edge somewhere there is a short fine line showing natural wood color instead of varnished and darken. First I was worry was it not glued but no light show thought it so basically just missed a little little bit of paint on the edge. The wool is much nicer than the cheap one. You can tell they are aged tree and they have been dry for a long time. Tutor did say if i have chance in the future get some Priastro string.

Michael

They do sound nice after a few months playing that's for sure. We had a 2003 Gems 2 viola back here just recently to be swapped for a violin. It was lovely, sounded like a Gama.

Liz

Sounds like you're enjoying your Gliga