Hello!

Not wishing to boast but I have just passed Grade 8 singing with merit. I taught myself and have only had four singing lessons. I would add, though, that I have perfect pitch and got 20/21 in Sight reading. Has this experience happened to other teachers as well?

Best wishes

Hugh Mackay

Many congrats bhmackay, given that you are a teacher(?) i guess you would expect no less of your self, grade 8 standard is fairly usual for teachers.

Well done. In my experience, having perfect pitch doesn not always mean that you are good at sight singing. I know plenty of excellent sight readers that don't have perfect pitch, and plenty that have perfect pitch but struggle to sight read. Anyone can learn to sight sing/read well given time and the right teaching.

Hello Hugh,

Congratulations on your singing success!! For someone who's specialism is piano and organ I think you have done extremely well!

I think those years under Kevin Stannard and Shirley thompson has paid off!!

Well Done Hugh

Byee

Congrats and it is really wonderful. Can you suggest the books you have referred. Hope you do few more instruments in the same way

Well done!! That's an extremely impressive sight-reading score!! (I can't remember what I got for mine... I have perfect pitch as well but I'm terrible at diction, and I tend to forget dynamics as well lol) congratulations, you should be really proud of yourself!

Well done Hugh - I have done the first 3 grades in Singing and really enjoyed it - I have to confess I loved the sight singing and got high marks as I have perfect pitch, and spurned the idea of not using the words. Grade 3 was hilarious as I got a very 'twee' verse to sing. I missed a Distinction at Grade 3 as I messed up the aural - it's so frustrating (I blame the acoustics in the venue

I must get motivated again as I like the songs for Grade 4 - I'm a piano teacher and just felt like doing something different.

It's amazing how natural singing is as a way of making music compared to the mechanics of the piano - I know I will be shot down in flames for that remark but it's something I feel.

I have used Music Minus One CDs for some of my exam songs which I found very useful, especially with a variable pitch/speed CD player.

Best Regards,

David Wheeler

QUOTE (David W @ Nov 21 2004, 05:44 PM)

It's amazing how natural singing is as a way of making music compared to the mechanics of the piano - I know I will be shot down in flames for that remark but it's something I feel.

No flames! Just TOTAL agreement!!!!

Yes, and it's so much easier to do whilst driving the car!

QUOTE (Amber @ Nov 22 2004, 07:26 PM)

Yes, and it's so much easier to do whilst driving the car!

gets you some funny looks sometimes though lol... (a friend of mine walked down the street with me the other day singing "Hand Me Down My Silver Trumpet Gabriel" in two-part harmony)

Hi, I passed grade 7 singing 18 months ago, and would like to take grade 8. It is a real pleasure to be singing in this way, and having to study and understand a song.
I've fallen for English Art songs, and don't like lieder very much.Also developing a passion for funny songs, Flanders and Swann, Joyce Grenfell and Richard Addinsell and Tom Lehrer.
I'll be sitting grade 8 piano before the singing. Iseem to have more control over my voice than my fingers.
I teach piano up to grade 3, and am hoping to continue studying and playing.
Lucky enough to have 2 great teachers for both voice and piano.

QUOTE (bhmackay @ Dec 9 2003, 12:09 AM)

Hello! Not wishing to boast but I have just passed Grade 8 singing with merit. I taught myself and have only had four singing lessons. I would add, though, that I have perfect pitch and got 20/21 in Sight reading. Has this experience happened to other teachers as well? Best wishes Hugh Mackay

This is an extraordinary and very noteworthy result. Does this world actually need singing teachers at all?What topics were handled in your four lesssons, and how long were they? How did you acquire all the other technique and information you needed to know, and who provided the critiques as you prepared? Was the examiner a singing specialist?

On a more serious note .. I'm pitch perfect, and can sight-sing well. Although years of choral experience have been marvellous for sight-singing, I agree that having perfect pitch does assist with sight singing.

This can be illustrated by comparing my ability to transpose at sight. I find this particularly confusing. I also find playing a piano, tuned half a tone or more away from concert pitch, to be a complete disaster.

So when working within perfect pitch in concert pitch, I guess I have an internal instrument that provides certain awkward notes at certain times!

In the meantime, I must remember to write to ABRSM to see if they will put some sort of CHALLENGE into Grade VIII singing exam - I mean Grade VIII should entitle us to some respect based on the years of serious study we have needed to undergo.

QUOTE (cheeble @ Nov 25 2004, 07:44 PM)

QUOTE (Amber @ Nov 22 2004, 07:26 PM) Yes, and it's so much easier to do whilst driving the car! gets you some funny looks sometimes though lol... (a friend of mine walked down the street with me the other day singing "Hand Me Down My Silver Trumpet Gabriel" in two-part harmony)

Hehehehe. At college once, when there in the holidays while a conference was being held, a friend and I were walking up toward the dining hall singing "Domine Fili" from the Vivaldi Gloria, and didn't realise there were people in the dining hall till we were walking past. We got some funny looks but we just carried on, hey, Vivaldi can do that to you!

Yep, pretty hard to play the flute whilst driving - and I'd get some *really* funny looks.

Well done, Hugh.

QUOTE (David W @ Nov 21 2004, 05:44 PM)

It's amazing how natural singing is as a way of making music compared to the mechanics of the piano - I know I will be shot down in flames for that remark but it's something I feel.

Yes I used to think this as well - singing is easy. Just learn the tune and the words and bingo! Don't be deceived!

During my years of learning from teachers, I found posture and breathing took a lot of time to get right.

Yet the technical demands are huge. I had to really work to develop a good vocal line, and to get a
smooth transition between the registers.

Staying in tune is much harder than what people realise - that is to the extra degree of precision you
can hear when you have sung for quite a long time.

Also singing a wonderful pp (as well as an ff) is a skill many well-known singers lack.

So now I am a confident soloist, not just a struggling rank and file chorister as before. Could I have achieved the transition on my own, chortling along to CDs - of course not!

I can't honestly say that I find singing a more natural way of making music than playing the piano - I have done both for years. Serious singing also requires careful preparation, control and concentration that goes well beyond what it may appear to involve.

My old singing teacher said to me once, 'When you've done your diploma, I'll teach you piano. It's much easier than singing.'

I don't think David meant that natural = easy. And no doubt a lot of people actually find singing less natural... but I do see what he means. Learning to sing well is learning to use properly what is already there - learning to play and instrument is slightly artifical by comparison even if you have a natural talent for that instrument. Maybe that's also what makes it harder - learning to use something we all use, even if we don't sing with it, in a way that may not seem natural. Whereas at least learning an instrument is totally new, so you don't feel like you're doing something you though you were able to do... if that sentence makes any sense!

I don't know what to say about this.

I just don't think you could aquire the technique really needed to attain a distinction at grade 8 without some direction from a teacher able to work with your own unique voice.

Sure sight-reading and aural tests you could fly by yourself, expecially if you play other instruments.

Something tells me you sung your songs exceptionally well, but maybe the examiner did not have their year entirely on technique.

I'm sure this doesn't stand for everyone, but you can not know the complexity of singing techniques if you are not a studying vocalist. So maybe as a pianist or violinist the examiner may not have know of the technicalites of the voice and how to pick up on them effectively.

I am sorry if that sounds at all rude, i just find it astonishing that you have only had three lessons!

apologies, but i had to say something, I have not yet done grade 8 as i took time out in uni, but I want to make sure i am completely sound with my technique before i enter.

QUOTE (sarah-flute @ May 5 2005, 06:07 PM)

I don't think David meant that natural = easy. And no doubt a lot of people actually find singing less natural... but I do see what he means. Learning to sing well is learning to use properly what is already there - learning to play and instrument is slightly artifical by comparison even if you have a natural talent for that instrument.

Unfortunately when most students take up singing, they find "learning to use properly what is already there" is a complete myth. The main thing I had was choral singing experienece and the ability to sing in tune, but even then I found to my horror that without proper technical training, even that was not absolutely precise enough!

In other words, what I had "already there" had to be largely unlearned, so I could put there what needed to be there.

Contrast that with a beginner pianist, who has no engrained bad pianistic practices, where you can build from scratch.

Perhaps bhmackay could explain to us exactly what he/she thinks could be used in public, on the back of the success in Grade 8 after 4 lessons. I would never have been able to accept solo engagements or even APPEAR in a competitions festival without a great deal more development than that.

Hi George

I agree entirely with what you say.

I've just done the maths to work out how such a merit could be achieved -

A bare pass on all the prepared songs (accompanied and unaccompanied) would give you 78/111. OK, lets be a bit generous and allow a couple of extra marks within the five songs to get us to (say) 82/111.

Sight singing - at which the quality of your voice is not assessed, and you don't have to sing the words (so nowhere near the sort of sight-singing you need in real life) but simply getting the right (ish) notes in the right order would yield 20/21

Aural tests - which a professional piano teacher like BH Mackay should be able to do with no difficulty at all 18/18.

And bingo, total of 120/150 and a merit. Whether you have a voice that is fit for solo work or not.

Is it any wonder that people think singing is an "easy" option?

Cheers

Katyjay

Congrats . I am thinking of doing this myself, I had singing lessons for 3/4 years when I was younger and understand the technique of singing more and more as I get older and listen to others. I have grade 8's in other instruments so am used to the exam situation and the aural tests. Thanks for the inspiration

QUOTE (George Burrell @ May 23 2005, 01:05 AM)

QUOTE (sarah-flute @ May 5 2005, 06:07 PM) I don't think David meant that natural = easy. And no doubt a lot of people actually find singing less natural... but I do see what he means. Learning to sing well is learning to use properly what is already there - learning to play and instrument is slightly artifical by comparison even if you have a natural talent for that instrument. Unfortunately when most students take up singing, they find "learning to use properly what is already there" is a complete myth. The main thing I had was choral singing experienece and the ability to sing in tune, but even then I found to my horror that without proper technical training, even that was not absolutely precise enough!

No, I did not mean technique at all when I said "what is already there" - I think you misunderstood me - I mean that we all (presumably) have vocal cords and lungs and tongues and lips and all the other paraphernalia that singing requires... whereas few if any of us are born with a violin or flute attached ! Not at all meaning to say that singing is "easy" or "we have a head start" - I'm no singer (I can sing in tune and people don't run screaming, but that's it) but even I know enough to know that proper singing technique is a good way from how most of us sing even if we sing in choirs or vocal groups. (though I can also see the point of view that, while singing well may be beyond many of us, singing full stop to some degree (even if it's terrible) *IS* something that anyone can do - if you define singing as making a sound with our mouths that isn't simply speech)

My point is that in the sense we are learning to use bits of our bodies which are integral, I can see the point that singing could be considered "natural" when compared to, for instance, playing the violin or the piano. We are learning to "play" if you like our bodies, not some outside instrument. I wouldn't say it's natural as such - I'd say possibly "more organic" than using an instrument would be a better way of putting it

James Galway when talking about playing the flute says essentially (and I would quote if I knew where the book was..!) that one thing about the flute is it's a pretty physical instrument - it's your *breath* that is creating the basic sound through simple vibration of air along a metal tube, it's affected by your embouchure, your diaphragm, your throat, even things which can't be controlled such as the shape and size of oral and nasal cavities. (I don't remember his exact words at all, and have expanded slightly, but this is the idea he's talking about, and I think it's a fair point) I don't think anyone would accuse Sir Jimmy of saying the flute was easy because of this, and the process by which a flautist creates a better sound and differences in tone is definitely not "natural" as such, but a manipulation of the lips etc which probably isn't quite the same as anything you'd do for something outside of flute playing (except conceivably playing another wind instrument or maybe singing?) but it could be considered more immediate than for example a piano, where there's quite a lot of mechanism between your finger hitting the key and the hammer hitting the note. That doesn't make playing the piano any less musical, any less of an instrument, or even any less physical when you get to advanced levels. But he certainly has a point about the immediacy and intimacy of the sound, it's made and heard so close to your lips and you hear it not only through your ears but inside your head. The quality of the sound is affected by the flute slightly, but not nearly so much as by how good you are at producing that tone. (it's not the flute you blow but how you blow your flute) The mechanism of it may not be natural, the feel of it can be.

When you're talking about singing, it's taking this to an even more intimate level: the sound is being created within your body - nothing is between you and the sound except your technical skill and artistic capability. It doesn't really depend on the quality of an outside agent (apart from your teacher explaining HOW to go about producing the sounds you need) - you can't buy a different set of vocal cords that are made of a better material, or have the internal geography of your head changed to get better resonance. Like I said, I would say it's more organic rather than being more natural, but that's a matter of different meanings of words; certainly singing comes very much from within in a way that is much closer to home than any other instrument can be. You're not learning to play something outside you by controlling your breath or fingers etc etc, you're learning to control actual parts of your anatomy.

To be honest I think that's one of the things that makes singing, or singing WELL anyway(!), hard. But certainly it can be considered natural in a way that holding a metal tube up to your lips or putting a wooden soundbox with strings on your shoulder and rubbing horsehair over it isn't. I also, to be honest, find it a bit silly if people have said "I find singing very natural" so say "oh no it isn't" - effectively "oh no you don't" - when... well they do! They said so! you may not agree, but they obviously feel that way...