I was musing this morning about the particular difficulties I have as a second study pianist. I didn't start piano lessons until after I had passed Grade 8 on flute.

My main difficulty is fingering. I'm getting more disciplined about following suggested fingering markings, and keeping to one fingering pattern, but I am hopeless when it comes to playing accompaniments or anything else that is written without fingering. I don't seem to have assimilated many rules, despite the number of pieces I have played.

My second difficulty is pedalling. I understand the concept of legato pedalling, I can do exercises fine, but I don't seem to be able to transfer that to piece playing.

Are these problems unique to me, or are they pretty general amongst others in my position?

I was a second study pianist when I started out when I played clarinet. I too found pedalling pretty hard to begin with despite knowing what it was for how it helped with the piece etc, but with practise it does come to you and soon you'll never realise you didn't know how to use the pedal

Fingering...well...*shrugs*

Piano is my first love but my pedalling is not so good.
Probably because I've never had much real teaching on pedalling but my current teacher doesn't let any untidy pedalling go unnoticed .

I have exactly the same problems, albeit at a rather lower level(!) So often pieces don't have fingerings because to a pianist they should be obvious - but they're not to me! I try and stick to marked fingerings (when they are marked) and it helps a lot! I find my keyboard geography is pretty reasonable, so I can use random fingerings because I don't rely on having my hands in the right position, but it does mean I end up doing the weirdest things sometimes.

I have just about got to the stage where sometimes if the marked fingering doesn't work for me I manage to come up with something not too insane

Pedals - I've only recently come to an understanding of what legato pedalling actually means *lightbulb moment!* but I still have difficulty applying it - it doesn't come naturally at all.

I started piano a good few years after starting the fiddle... before I started the flute, but always found flute considerably easier! - then gave up for some years. So I tend to consider it my least studied of the instruments I'm reasonable at. I'm quite a way behind you (about 4 grades thereabouts ) but do have the same problems!

Write in your fingering when you first look at a new piece. The general rule is that it should be as comfortable for you to play as possible with regards to your own hands, which is not necessarily going to be the same as the printed fingering. You should aim to move your hand position as little as possible, and choose fingerings which link together smoothly - look ahead for any awkward moves and experiment with different ways to approach them if that is possible. Aim for consistency where you have similar passages.

If you can do the pedalling exercises, you should find that it will gradually come together with your pieces. Legato pedalling is not that easy to do well - it doesn't come naturally to hold the pedal over to the first beat of the next bar or phrase, which is the commonest usage.

Seems harder to me too!

That's probably because it is harder.

can't argue with that

Is it not harder to start a new instrument once you have reached the heights of grade 8 on another instrument?

I know I am finding it hard to go back to basics on the bassoon. On the piano I am grade 7 but on the bassoon I can barely play for five minutes without my embouchure giving out. It is a very humbling experience but I just tell myself that I am doing well for the stage I am at and that will have to do for the meantime.

I think that the hard thing is being patient enough.
I'm starting on clarinet and because I can already read music and have not found it difficult to learn the fingerings I want to go faster than I should.

I wonder whether piano as a second instrument is a slower starter anyway?

Do not dispair! When I first started the oboe I too could only play for about five minutes. These days (two and a half years later) I reluctantly put the oboe away after an hour as, unfortunately, it is not the only thing in my life.

Rhu, it has plus and minus points (I re-started the piano, playing grade 2 pieces after I'd got ATCL in singing). The biggest minus is that I know from looking at the music what I want it to sound like but my hands won't deliver the music I ask for. The major plus is that I can use my musical understanding from my first instrument to guide the way I play things on the piano.

Yep, can identify with that

How would you describe ' embouchure'?
Just curious.
Thanks.

I'd describe it as 'the way you hold you mouth'.... or maybe 'lip position'?

Me three! I was poised for Grade 6 clarinet when I first started on piano.

Alot of the things I found most difficult have been resolved over time - two clefs, two staves, hands doing completely different things - but some things still cause problems. The biggest one is the fact that I know exactly which note I'll get if I put down certain combinations of fingers on clarinet, but it could be any note on piano. Add balance between hands, counterpoint in a single hand, cross rhythms, crossing hands and pedalling, and I wonder how on earth I ever passed Grade 7.

I'm currently building up courage to take the plunge and book some piano lessons, as I'm sure my technique has nose-dived since my last lesson, and I seem to have plateaud trying to teach myself the Grade 8 pieces. I'm sure it'll be fine when I'm there, it's just taking a deep breath and making that phone call...

You gonna take piano lessons from your previous teacher, Deborah?

FC is right here. It needn't be your previous teacher but do take lessons. My playing has really come on as a result.

I started the piano as an adult as a second (well third) study. I think it is much harder.... trying to play so many notes all at once. I too get frustrated because I know what it should sound like. My Dad (now 77) was a concert pianist and he'll play my pieces for me and make them sound so easy!!!!
I find sight reading so hard as my main instrument is clarinet and you only have to sight-read one line. Also, on the clarinet it doesn't make so much sense to read intervals when sight reading. A note of the stave equates to a certain fingering, and whilst I would obviously notice an arpeggio or scale passage in sight reading I don't naturally "read" the interval. Apparently, I should in piano. I'm not so used to spotting chords. My teacher shouts (yes... sometimes she does nearly shout) "It's a A minor chord, can't you see?" Well... I can if I look .... but I'm not used to looking.Tthe adult learners my teacher has who haven't learned an instrument before appear to "read" intervals and chords more easily than me even if I am on a higher grade...if you see what I mean.
And as for pedalling... I spend today's lesson attempting to pedal the Moonlight Sonata. I get pedalling... and do it fine for a few weeks. Then I lose it. Today I couldn't do it. When I get tense I lift my heel off the floor. Not good ....
Ah well ... it might be hard but I really enjoy it. I also think being mastering the piano will help me with my pupils' aural tests stuff in lessons and accompanying of my clarinet pupils. I won't have to rely on the ABRSM CD's.

I have that problem too!

And me, although I'm steadily recognising more of them.

I explained to my teacher recently about that, that when I see 3 notes I often see just that - 3 notes. He was really amazed, I guess he's so used to recognising that stuff, and he knows I am a musician... so it didn't occur to him it wouldn't be automatic to me!

Yes that's just it ... I see 3 notes not a chord.... My Dad is only a pianist and he's looking at passages and saying "Well that's easy ... it's a diminished 7th ... or an inverted whatever". I just see notes. When I did theory as a child of course I could recognise chords.... but I sort of worked them out mathematically... or at least logically not at sight.
I find it weird that first study pianists can see chords ... how do they do that ?

That's an interesting question, and I'd expect you to get different answers from different people - two pianists or keyboard players who can do this might see it quite differently.

I think it's to do with recognition of patterns (start with a simple triad - three lines or three spaces on the stave), and becoming familiar with what notes make up any particular chord. Practise your arpeggios and broken chords - the patterns are the same. Play around with major and minor triads and gradually expand your recognition of them etc etc.

It's underpinned by a good sense of key and the understanding of how different chords "fit" into any particular key, although "seeing" chords is perfectly possible in a non-tonal piece - if they exist (or even if the "almost" exist. It's not necessarily only first study pianists who can do this - a reasonable keyboard facility plus some knowledge of harmony will get you well on the way.

I don't know if this helps at all. No doubt I'm seeing it very much from the point of view of a keyboard player!

Well, I have a good theory knowledge of triads, chords and keys and I can recognise a lot of them at sight. I also have, through doing a bit of keyboard harmony, an increasing knowledge of inversions and how to play them. The problem is that I don't have most of the fingerings inbuilt, so when I see a particular chord shape I go with the correct fingering. A chord progression then becomes a finger-twisting nightmare.

On the recognition front, I do have particular problem with chords which contain a second, and chords which contain accidentals on one or more adjacent notes. I also have more problems recognising chords in the bass clef.

Well - there's clearly a good level of recognition happening there already, which has to be good.

The problem is that I don't have most of the fingerings inbuilt, so when I see a particular chord shape I go with the correct fingering. A chord progression then becomes a finger-twisting nightmare.

sorry if I'm being thick, Andante - could you clarify what you mean by the "correct" fingering? Do you mean that you see each chord as a completely separate group of notes?

sorry - got to dash - back later!

Maybe I'm wrong here. I thought there was a usual fingering or fingerings for chords in a particular progression, so for example, a first inversion RH 3-part chord on white notes would usually be played with one fingering (eg 124), and this fingering would lead smoothly to the next chord etc. I'm talking about commonly found chord progressions in things like RH continuo parts.

ah - ok. I guess my 1-2-4 kind of twitch when I see a first inversion chord. Maybe taking context into account is one of the next steps. If the chords are "broken" it's easier to keep to normal fingering patterns; if the chords are harmonic it's more complicated - depending on how they are written - am I on the right track here? Or should I have gone back and read the whole of the thread first!!?

Interesting about 2nd study pianists not picking up on patterns very easily....
It's strange going the other direction..... on clarinet it seems slightly awkward to have to think about what the notes are...

I've seen discussions about notation not making sense to pianists but I think it makes a lot of sense as it is like a chart of what you are doing with your hands.... up is up and down is down....

I don't know , but I think if you started by piano then your other instrument , it would be easier...

That's what is happening with my young sister , she has been taking a few piano lessons -just to know the basics,you know- then she is going to start her violin lessons this summer..

You've been brainwashed! Actually up is right and down is left...

Well... ok....But once you know up from down but tipped on it's side...
But I wasn't brainwashed... it's a conclusion I came to all on my own.

And what about when you're only halfway up? Are you neither up nor down?

Like enharmonics it depends where you are coming from.....

Being a second study pianist the hardest thing i find about it is playing with two hands looking at two clefs! My teacher tells me i have a good ear, good technique, and good musical skills but on the piano it takes me twice as long to learn a piece than it does on clarinet and flute!

The pedals i find really easy to work them so thats one good point but i always seem to hit wrong notes!

Do 1st study pianist have to look down at the notes all the time to get the right one? I don't think they d often but me being 2nd study i have to look at the keyboard alla time until i know the piece so well i could just about play it from memory!!

I don't look down much at all to find notes, only when there is a big jump really and then it's usually only a swift glance.
Or I sometimes need a quick look if I hear something wrong although I can often correct this without looking.
It's probably easier to do if you are disciplined about it from the start but I'm sure it's never to late to learn your way around the keyboard.

I'm a second study (well, maybe 3rd...) pianist but my keyboard geography is pretty good. I don't think that has to do necessarily with whether it's your first or second instrument. As a violinist, violist, and flautist mainly, I'm quite used to not being able to keep an eye on what my fingers are doing.