Hi everyone

I recently bought the hanon book of piano studies/excersises and i wondered if anybody else used it and if so did they think it was any good?

My piano teacher told me i needed to practice playing staccato and my friend 'helpfully' suggested Hanon (i'll get you back some day!)

After playing one excersize from it I thought my wrist was going to fall off!! lol

Anyway if anyone has used the book what do they think of it?? And is there any other way I can practice playing staccato?

Thanx a lot
Charl

Hai Charl,

yes, I am using Hanon too and it should give you great benefits in technicality if you use it properly (you should read the preface, it gives the guidance of using Hanon).

I have improved my fingering skills since I am using Hanon, and FYI it is a must-use piano exercise book in Indonesia.

Natalia

QUOTE (indo @ Jun 14 2004, 02:46 AM)

Hai Charl, yes, I am using Hanon too and it should give you great benefits in technicality if you use it properly (you should read the preface, it gives the guidance of using Hanon). I have improved my fingering skills since I am using Hanon, and FYI it is a must-use piano exercise book in Indonesia. Natalia

Natalia,

There is an opposing view on Hanon and Czerny type exercises and I thought you (or others here) might like to consider it. You are wise in using the phrase 'if you use it properly' because technical exercises are very limited in their application. In fact, believe it or not, you can do without them and still do very well. Doing without them should also save you a lot of time.

Here's my explanation for your consideration.

1) The problem - Czerny and Hanon exercises were composed to tackle particular problems for the pianist. And the problem Czerny exercises were to solve is the Sonata form of composers in the Beethoven era. That's why you see a lot of heavy chord endings, the rondo form, scale passages etc in your Czerny books.

In those days, the technical development of the pianoforte was still in its infancy and the main aim was finger independence. Hence, Hanon, where you find all the exercises to free your third and fourth fingers from each other. Now here's the big news! We were not created with our fingers independent of each other. In fact if you look carefully they are all connected to the hand and the hand is connected to the forearm and the forearm is connected to the arm and the arm to the shoulder etc, etc. You get the point. That's why Hanon is totally useless in meeting its aim of finger independence. We will never get the 3rd finger to be independent of the 4th even if we practiced Hanon for 20 years. Anatomy is the key.

2) More problems - While the pianoforte world was trying to solve finger independence a quiet revolution was taking place in the musical life of one called Frederic Chopin. Almost self-taught, at age 19 (if I'm not mistaken) he began composing his Etudes, something the likes of which the then pianoforte world has never seen. The compositions contain impossible leaps and stretches of the hand that drove the virtuosi (sp?) of those days crazy. In fact many of them were stumped by the Etudes and a critic (his name escapes me) suggested sacarstically that anyone wanting to play the Etudes should have a surgeon at hand, supposedly to cut up your hands for the stretches. And if you think you have problems with Chopin, try Listz and even Rachmaninoff (sp?) They took it even further than Chopin. Anatomy is the key.

3) The solution - When people went about finding a solution for the Etudes they realized that, yes, anatomy is the key. The aim is no longer finger independence but rather to use the whole body and the inescapable fact of finger interdependence to aid your fingers to play the piano. Inertia, gravity, body and arm weight all play a part. Circular, up-down, arching and pivoting movements are an important part of your learning to play the piano. Good books to read are Sandor, Fink etc. If you're a student, a free internet book by Chuan C. Chang on piano practice is a good read. He has a list of books including the two above for reference. Do a google on his name. If I can get the URL I'll post it here later.

As for Czerny the reasoning is this; why waste time playing isolated sonata passages when you can play the actual sonata itself? Remember, the final aim is the musicality of the piece. And the biggest culprit of this defect is the Hanon and Czerny exercises (Hanon is the worst, I can't think of anything more unmusical than it).
Let's do a comparison. If you practise Czerny for 2 months what do you get at the end of it? Well, technical proficiency in Czerny! But if you play a Beethoven Sonata with the same technical problems addressed in Czerny for 2 months what do you get? Technical proficiency in Czerny AND a new Beethoven Sonata under your belt! Wow, now that's a time saving hint for you. You should get your technical exercises by playing actual musical pieces!

In fact it has been shown that the ABRSM grade 8 can be reached in 3 years or less if you approach it methodically using good and efficient methods which you can find in books mentioned above. Of course, you should have the drive and passion for playing the piano as well. Your teacher should guide you to think and plan accordingly.

I hope you have been helped. Wow this is a long first post. I just discovered this forum today.

Regards,

dennis lee

Cheers Dennis.

cellodude, are THE dennis lee?

Hello lucy and socks,

No. I am not THE Dennis Lee. How I wish. I have been asked this a number of times on other piano forums. Maybe I should change my name. I am just a doting father of 2 lovely children (a third on the way) who are learning to play the piano and violin.

I am applying the lessons learned above to their practice sessions and I must say they are making quite good progress.

Here is the URL as promised. Enjoy.

dennis lee

I found and still find Hanon really useful, as long as you don't just bash your way thru it.i know its repetitive, but its good for technique and waking you up early in the morning to start practise with, well thats what i used it for when doin practice for my grade 8 piano! good luck

Although I know that there are some critics regarding Hanon - repetition and dullness, I still found it a very useful tool to finger speed, dexterity and independency.

In fact one important value of it is, in my opinion, that Hanon is so repetitive and homogeneous in each individual exercise such that one can divert all her attention/concentration on several areas that she wants to improve.

I do not think that "replacing Hanon by just doing pieces" is a good idea. It is just a short-cut, similar to one just do the Grade 8 pieces to pass it.

Having said that, Hanon should not take up too much exercise time either. I usually do about 5 (to 10) exercise daily as warm up - on a lucky day, I can have 2~3 hours practising time.

Cheers,
Tannie

I can't agree more with you Tannie, whatever this Mr Dennis Lee said, sounds absolutely weird to me. Everyone knows that to learn piano properly and not just making short-cut, one must learn technical fingerity properly and that is found in Hanon and Czerny Etudes (of course they are not the only ones!).

And to comment of tackle grade 8 in 3 years that is IMPOSSIBLE to do no matter how genius and talented you are , except IF in those 3 years what you do is only to learn the scales, aural, and pieces required in the exam books grade 1 to 8.

There are other aspects of musicality such as maturity, ability to express the pieces, et cetera......

And here in this country one spends averagely 7 to 9 years to learn graded piano properly, depending on the student, because we are learning all i.e scales, etudes, pieces, songs, aural, theory, singing and there absolutely is no short-cut.

Natalia

QUOTE (indo @ Jun 16 2004, 03:03 AM)

And to comment of tackle grade 8 in 3 years that is IMPOSSIBLE to do no matter how genius and talented you are , except IF in those 3 years what you do is only to learn the scales, aural, and pieces required in the exam books grade 1 to 8. There are other aspects of musicality such as maturity, ability to express the pieces, et cetera...... And here in this country one spends averagely 7 to 9 years to learn graded piano properly, depending on the student, because we are learning all i.e scales, etudes, pieces, songs, aural, theory, singing and there absolutely is no short-cut. Natalia

That is really true, Natalia... I have to say though, that I know of some people that can tackle Grade 8 in 6 months.... it's unbelievable.... but, through hard work, and practise they can actually get there... I find that Hanon is really really helpful when it comes down to doing Mozart pieces...or really really fast pieces... coz it helps to build your technique up...

I noticed you were from Indonesia? Well, I used to live there as well.... are you a student of ABRSM?? Have you always lived in Indo?? What grade are you up to at the moment? DO you go private tuition or go to a music school??

It's very interesting to know someone from the same country.....

Maxie...

Wow! So many replies so suddenly. I hope I can address all your concerns adequately.

It seems some are using Hanon for warming up (LullyEuph and Tannie) and that should be alright although not preferable. Why not try something more musical like Bach's 2-part Inventions or CPE Bach's Solfeggio or Daquin's Le Coucou, Rondeau? Some of LVB's easier Sonatas are good for warm-ups too, like Op.10 No.2, Op 13 Pathetique (sp?) or Op 79. Or even Fur Elise?

I am now learning Chopin's Etude Op. 25 No. 1, Impromptu No. 1 in A flat and LVB's Op. 10 No. 2 and I always play the Sonata first to warm up before practising the other two. You should come up with your own favourites for warm-ups. ( I am hearing 'Oh I already have a favourite and it's Hanon' )

I'm afraid I have to be a bit doubtful about Tannie's claim of finger independence. I think what happens is when you play Hanon (or any piece first ) your fingers get warmed up and you are then able to play fast and accurately and the accuracy gives you a sense of finger independence. That's not finger independence. Cup your hand like you are holding a tennis ball. Put it palm down gently on the table with your 2 - 5 finger tips touching the table at a slight angle. Your thumb should be lying flat on its side. Now lift any of the 3rd to 5th finger high without moving any of the other fingers at all. No can do? Now practise Hanon for 20 years and try that again then report back to this thread If you can do that successfully now, I will concede that Hanon gives you finger independence.

QUOTE

I do not think that "replacing Hanon by just doing pieces" is a good idea. It is just a short-cut, similar to one just do the Grade 8 pieces to pass it.

Well, Tannie "replacing Hanon by just doing pieces" IS indeed a short-cut but it has nothing to do with "just do the Grade 8 pieces to pass it". Just playing exam pieces to pass a Grade is a very bad attitude and is probably a symptom of a child being forced to play the piano. If you love the piano and have a passion for it you will not have that attitude, instead, you will want to learn as many pieces as possible in as short a time as possible and thus be on the lookout for short-cuts. So you see the two behaviours are mutually exclusive .

TullyEuph and Tannie, repetition in Hanon is not a problem ( it is the stated aim of Hanon i.e. finger independence that is the problem). We do repeat a passage or phrase or bar incessantly to learn it. Learning a piece is basically conditioning our hands and body (and mind) to reach a technical level capable of playing it comfortably. And repetition is the method to achieve the required conditioning.

QUOTE

In fact one important value of it is, in my opinion, that Hanon is so repetitive and homogeneous in each individual exercise such that one can divert all her attention/concentration on several areas that she wants to improve.

Yes, you are right that this is an opinion and I respect your right to hold it although I disagree. I believe (my opinion) that we should not separate the music from the technical aspect of the piece when practising. It is just like saying I want to learn to swim but I will do a dry run in my room first by swinging my arms around like I would do in the water. Then I will jump into the water and do the real thing (swim). Our final aim is to play a piece in its totality with interpretation, emotion, expression etc. All this must be done together. Of course you can seperate all these out and learn them separately and double or triple your learning time.

And now to address Natalia. If you will allow me to say so politely I think a paradigm shift in your outlook would be a great help to you.

QUOTE

..., whatever this Mr Dennis Lee said, sounds absolutely weird to me. Everyone knows ...

Well, NOT everyone knows you need to slog like a dog going from Grade 1 to 8. I know of a better and easier way. A paradigm shift in your thinking and outlook is your answer.

QUOTE

And to comment of tackle grade 8 in 3 years that is IMPOSSIBLE to do no matter how genius and talented you are  , except IF in those 3 years what you do is only to learn the scales, aural, and pieces required in the exam books grade 1 to 8.

Just because you cannot imagine being able to do Grade 8 in less than 3 years does not mean that it is not possible. Thanks maxalear. My 9 year old daughter went from Grade 0 to Grade 5 in 10 months. Actually in the 10th month she was already playing Grade 6 pieces but the teacher (a darn good one) wanted her to take Grade 5 instead just to be safe. And she at the same time went from Grade 0 to Grade 6 in her violin lessons in 13 months (same teacher). And she is no genius. In fact she in not doing well in school and her below average marks are a concern to me but that's being taken care of thankfully. She shows symptoms of Attention Deficit Syndrome and may be a little Dyslexic. So I think you definitely need a paradigm shift!

QUOTE

And here in this country one spends averagely 7 to 9 years to learn graded piano properly, depending on the student, because we are learning all i.e scales, etudes, pieces, songs, aural, theory, singing and there absolutely is no short-cut.

Absolutely? no short-cuts? Says who? ABRSM does not require you to take any prior grade before taking any one grade except that you need Grade 5 theory for Practical Grades 6 and above. You can just take Grade 8 without doing anything else (except Grade 5 theory). Why do you have to slog for 7 to 9 years to learn the piano? How demoralizing and boring that is. Just because that's the way everyone has done it all these years doesn't mean you can't do something different this year. All I can say now is to open your mind and consider other options. First, download Chang's free book and read it. Try to get Sandor's or Fink's book. They are expensive though . And most importantly try out at least some of their suggestions for some months and see what difference they can make in your technique. I will try to tell you how I came to this position from my own experience in a later post. For now I think I have said too much.


TTFN (Ta Ta For Now)

dennis lee

Well.... interesting!

Firstly... "finger independency" warranted by Hanon for piano does NOT mean that we can work beyond physical limits. Analogy: An athelete pracised jumping for one year does not make him able to jump from the Earth to the Moon. Maybe she improves a little... or even just keeping at the same level.

Secondly... practising Hanon is differnt from "dry swimming" (as warm up). Analogy: Before I swim, I (and I believe most people) DO need some warm up on the ground. We may move our heads, arms, body and legs around, before jumping into the water to do actual swimming.

After all... I respect everyone has his/her own thoughts and preferences.

Cheers,
Tannie

QUOTE

Firstly... "finger independency" warranted by Hanon for piano does NOT mean that we can work beyond physical limits.  Analogy: An athelete pracised jumping for one year does not make him able to jump from the Earth to the Moon.  Maybe she improves a little... or even just keeping at the same level.

Well, looks like we understand "finger independence" differently. I'm okay with that. However, from what I've read, most people who happens to hold the same view about Hanon as I do understand it the way I described it above.

QUOTE

Secondly... practising Hanon is differnt from "dry swimming" (as warm up). Analogy: Before I swim, I (and I believe most people) DO need some warm up on the ground. We may move our heads, arms, body and legs around, before jumping into the water to do actual swimming.

Oops! What I feared most happened. Sorry. I could have done a better job of making myself clear. Let me try again. The learning to swim example I gave was not meant to illustrate warm-ups. It was given in reference to learning the whole part of the music in front of us. You said separating the technical from the musical helps us to better learn the piece. I said "no". We need all aspects of the environment to properly understand the piece. My point was, isolating the musical from the technical aspect of the piece is like learning to swim without water. Did I just make it worse?

Anyway it is very difficult to describe something totally alien to others in a thread like this. As I promised earlier, I will try to describe a little about my experience to help you understand how I came to this conclusion.

Regards,

dennis lee

I just have to answer Dennis Lee in these 2 matters:

1) change of paradigm? I think it is you the one needs to change your paradigm, because learning an instrument is not merely going to grades only to collect certificates, and to be able to say to people that you are such a such grade but in reality are not mastering the technicality and aspects demanded by the instruments. And if you read my first post clearly I just answered the question whether it is helpful or not to learn Hanon which I replied according to my own experience, it is helpful. Never I said in my post that you MUST learn it, but what I said is that it is a must-use book here under the curricullum as it develops your fingers technicality, especially to strengthen your left hand. As you object Hanon and Czerny and prefer something else it is your private choice.

2) your daughter did grade 0 to grade 5 in 10 months. Sorry, it may sound rude but I am not impressed at all. Here in Indonesia taking graded exams either by ABRSM or AMEB (international recognition) and from the music school the student attends (local recognition) as means to test the ability of the student and their achievements, not for just collecting certificates. How can you learn all the scales, etudes, songs, pieces, aural, theories, improvisation from grade 0 (nothing) to grade 5 in just 10 months unless you ONLY learn all that required/written in the exams books and probably some additional pieces given by the teacher?
And as to your comments learning piano 7 to 9 years is a boring and demoralizing thing? the opposite is true. We have school, work and other activities. And here in Indonesia every music school and private teaching tuition for classical music (also for pop and jazz) have a curricullum for every grade that is list of scales ablity, etudes, songs, pieces, aural, theories, improvisation that must be well achieved/mastered by a student before they can apply/considered eligible to sit for whatever examination as I have mentioned above. We have a saying here: there is nothing can be achieved in an instant time- and whatever is achieved in such an instant time will not stand the test. Try to look at music teachers, performers and directors, do they learn by short-cuts?

without prejudice and I rest my case,

Natalia.

To Maxie : I am Indonesian, work as a secretary and a student of Yamaha Music School. I am now grade 7 which equal to grade 6 ABRSM.

Natalia,

I hope I have not offended you. If I have, my most sincere apologies. My original post was in response to the original poster Charl who asked if Hanon was of any use. Since you have already weighed in with your response I thought he or others here might like to consider an alternate view.

I have no intention to offend or impress anyone (no need to). I also have no intention to argue over small matters. And no one here has to agree with me. I am fine with that. But I do wish however, that people would read the books I mentioned and try things out for themselves before coming to any conclusion and posting here. I am hoping also that I have the chance to explain my position and make things clear for others.

I am posting from the office during lunch here (BTW, I'm from Malaysia so we are neighbours. I hope we can be good neighbours) so I cannot go into too much detail. I hope to be able to find a weekend to give some background of myself so everyone knows where I am coming from. Maybe next weekend as I may have to work this weekend.

A hint of what's to come - I am in my middle forties and I have always loved classical music especially piano music. I tried learning the piano when I was a kid and in my eyes I failed miserably. In seven years I had 8 teachers, I took Grades 1 to 6, failed a grade, got merit for one and just passed the rest. I tried Grade 7 and got nowhere especially with the fast pieces. How's that for demoralizing? But it was not for lack of passion for the piano. I practised way into the night, to the point that my mother yelled at me to stop. So what was wrong? I played a lot of Hanon, Czerny and yes, scales but that didn't help.

At 44, I have now been given a second chance to make it good. I discovered a new (to me) approach that allowed me to play Chopin's Op. 25 No. 1 Etude after a 25 year hiatus (stopping at Grade 6). Never in my wildest dream did I even think it possible.

Natalia, this is not about skipping grades, this is not about impressing others but about pure unbridled passion for the pianoforte, about learning and (re)discovery and for me personally it is like getting a new life (or a new lease on life). I too was a bit hesitant at first not knowing what to expect but I realized that I needed a radical change in my thinking, hence the paradigm shift thing (I recognized it immediately when I read your post), and my children's quick progress helped convince me. 25 years ago I would have agreed with every thing you posted here because I was doing exactly the same things you mentioned in your posts (and believing the same things too), but now I know differently. I have no delusions about playing like Christian Zimmerman but I do believe this new discovery can take me quite a ways above diploma level and my goal now is to do it before I turn 50. Wish me luck.

TTFN,

dennis lee

Fair enough the point about serparating technical from musical...
Yes, it is important to be able to play musically BUT
sometimes it can help to have technical excercises that are purely that to give the tools you need for playnig musically.

I used to use Hanon, and it proved useful for Grade 8. However, it is probably better to glean technique through immediate application to the repertoire. Hanon is not good music, and will prove harmful to health if played as instructed. I now use excerpts from the Chopin Studies as my warm-up.

QUOTE (Charl @ Jun 13 2004, 10:22 PM)

Hi everyone......My piano teacher told me i needed to practice playing staccato and my friend 'helpfully' suggested Hanon........After playing one excersize from it I thought my wrist was going to fall off!!     lol  :( .............

If this is happening to you then you are playing this all wrong. There should be no pain. You should aim when playing this to always be relaxed. There should be no tension in you wrist, forearm, upperarm etc. You don't mention in your post the position of your hand, wrist etc. For instance is your wrist too low maybe? Is there lots of tension? I have been taught (and I am trying to improve this at the moment) that to get a good staccato you should have a quite high wrist, loose wrist hand etc. and then your fingers throw and pull (no tension but strong) but use the whole pad of the finger. Practise at this should be slow because you will have to concentrate to be relaxed - sorry if you already know this. Has your teacher not demonstrated for you?

[QUOTE=cellodude,Jun 14 2004, 05:37 AM][QUOTE=indo,Jun 14 2004, 02:46 AM]........Inertia, gravity, body and arm weight all play a part. Circular, up-down, arching and pivoting movements are an important part of your learning to play the piano. Good books to read are Sandor, Fink etc........[/QUOTE]

Cellodude I understand the point you are trying to make here as my teacher has a very unique (in my experience anyway) way of teaching. However this is not taught to the exception of various technical exercises. I also use Dohnanyi - (hungarian) and very good for finger independence (but again if you use it you must always make sure your forearm, wrist hand is relaxed). I will go and read the internet book you mention though

QUOTE (cellodude @ Jun 16 2004, 06:36 AM)

Wow! So many replies so suddenly.........Cup your hand like you are holding a tennis ball. Put it palm down gently on the table with your 2 - 5 finger tips touching the table at a slight angle. Your thumb should be lying flat on its side. Now lift any of the 3rd to 5th finger high without moving any of the other fingers at all. No can do? ...........

I can do this with finger 2 & 5 and not so high with 3 & 4 - you don't say how high. The piano is not a flat surface though.
p.s. how do you get the quotes in the little box?

QUOTE (edd_of_wuggins @ Jun 17 2004, 06:49 PM)

I used to use Hanon, and it proved useful for Grade 8. However, it is probably better to glean technique through immediate application to the repertoire. Hanon is not good music, and will prove harmful to health if played as instructed. I now use excerpts from the Chopin Studies as my warm-up.

Can you expand a little on this? The Hanon I have is a book of exercises, it doesn't claim to be good music. Having passed grade 8 and looking towards a performing diploma I have recently started using Hanon. I use Hanon, Dohnanyi, scales, double thirds, arpeggios, the list goes on Did you pick out your own excerpts from the Chopin studies or were they recommended to you?

Without prolonging the discussion, I also use Hanon after being introduced to it about a year ago. I is an excellent tool for developing technic, fingering independence and strength. I couldn't stand it at first but after a while I oved it so much, I bought the entire book. KEEP PLAYING!!!

QUOTE (sbhoa @ Jun 17 2004, 12:28 PM)

Fair enough the point about serparating technical from musical... Yes, it is important to be able to play musically BUT sometimes it can help to have technical excercises that are purely that to give the tools you need for playnig musically.

sbhoa,

You are quite right. Sandor and Fink (I think, ... I have not read his book) also uses exercises to illustrate their points. But it doesn't work all the time.

Let me illustrate further what I meant in my earlier post. Let's say you are learning broken thirds, 1-3-2-4-3-5, move thumb up (down, for left hand, LH), 1-3-2-4-3-5, etc. You try Hanon and you find that you are successful. Then you see a similar passage in say an LVB's sonata. It goes for say 6 bars and it says cres. below it.

As I understand Hanon's finger independence and fingers only approach ( others may understand differently from me), here's how I would do it. I would raise my fingers higher and higher so that I can hit the keys harder and harder to create the cres. effect. As Tannie noted above and Ursie below we soon reach a physical limit. We find that there is not much room for manouver (sp? how in the world do you spell that word? We need a spell checker, but you know what I mean).

Sandor says to roll your wrist a little as you move from 1 to 3, and 2 to 4 etc. Now, you have more choices, you can move your fingers up and use your wrist to aid your fingers to do the cres. It now increases the range of cres. that you are able to do.

Now if you had only used Hanon to learn broken thirds you would not have been aware of the problem and not found a solution for it. And learning Hanon didn't prepare you for the 'real' thing in this simple example. Going straight to the 'real' sonata and tackling broken thirds in a musical setting would have enabled you to have a more rounded understanding of broken thirds and saved you a lot of time.

You will see the limitation of Hanon when you go for bigger things after diploma.

regards,

dennis lee

QUOTE (Ursie @ Jun 17 2004, 11:19 PM)

QUOTE (cellodude @ Jun 16 2004, 06:36 AM) Wow! So many replies so suddenly.........Cup your hand like you are holding a tennis ball. Put it palm down gently on the table with your 2 - 5 finger tips touching the table at a slight angle. Your thumb should be lying flat on its side. Now lift any of the 3rd to 5th finger high without moving any of the other fingers at all. No can do? ........... I can do this with finger 2 & 5 and not so high with 3 & 4 - you don't say how high. The piano is not a flat surface though. p.s. how do you get the quotes in the little box?

Ursie,

You try to raise your fingers as high as possible. And you noted correctly that you are able to do 2 and 5 better than the rest. Try as hard as you can, 3 and 4 will never move independently of each other. (maybe in a few million years humans will have evolved to...nah, just kidding. I don't believe in evolution).

About the piano keyboard not being a flat surface, you are probably refering to the difference in height between the white and black keys. Sandor and Chang (I think, I can't remember) address that very well. Too long to go into here, too many variations to consider. Please read the book(s).

Quotes - I think what you did was you clicked on the quote button in my earlier post and started keying in the "Original Post to Quote" box. You shouldn't do that. Key your response into the "Enter your Post" box.

To quote a post partially, position your cursor where you want the quote to appear in your own post, then click on the "QUOTE" button above the "Enter your Post" box. A quote delimiter will appear. Then copy and paste the part of the other poster's entry that you wish to use after the delimiter. Then click on the "QUOTE" button again. A closing delimiter will appear. Continue to write your comments after the closing delimiter.

Regards,

dennis lee

QUOTE (Ursie @ Jun 17 2004, 11:13 PM)

QUOTE (cellodude @ Jun 14 2004, 05:37 AM) QUOTE (indo @ Jun 14 2004, 02:46 AM) ........Inertia, gravity, body and arm weight all play a part. Circular, up-down, arching and pivoting movements are an important part of your learning to play the piano. Good books to read are Sandor, Fink etc........ Cellodude I understand the point you are trying to make here as my teacher has a very unique (in my experience anyway) way of teaching. However this is not taught to the exception of various technical exercises. I also use Dohnanyi - (hungarian) and very good for finger independence (but again if you use it you must always make sure your forearm, wrist hand is relaxed). I will go and read the internet book you mention though

Ursie,

It sounds like your teacher would appreaciate Sandor's book if he or she has not already read it. I have not used Dohnanyi, I've only been into this about a year after a 25 year lapse.

I may have given the impression that all technical exercises are useless in my earlier posts. Sorry about that, but that was not my intention. My main bone of contention is with Hanon and a little bit with Czerny.

East Europeans like the Russians and Hungarians are very well known for their exceptional technique especially in the cello world. I won't be surprised if this is the case in the piano world too. So listen to your teacher.

Regards,

dennis lee

I think Hanon is fairly good; I use it (when I remember to) as a finger exercise. My teacher also gives me Pischner (I think that's how it's spelt) and makes up her own lol.

It's not good to repeat them too much, I think, but they are useful, and a good warm up.

QUOTE (Ursie @ Jun 17 2004, 11:19 PM)

QUOTE (cellodude @ Jun 16 2004, 06:36 AM) Wow! So many replies so suddenly.........Cup your hand like you are holding a tennis ball. Put it palm down gently on the table with your 2 - 5 finger tips touching the table at a slight angle. Your thumb should be lying flat on its side. Now lift any of the 3rd to 5th finger high without moving any of the other fingers at all. No can do? ........... I can do this with finger 2 & 5 and not so high with 3 & 4 - you don't say how high. The piano is not a flat surface though. p.s. how do you get the quotes in the little box?

Yay! I can do that, and I haven't been doing Hanon.. Hmm, does that mean anything? I think Bach helps too, in terms of finger independency.

QUOTE

that's how it's spelt) and makes up her own lol.

That indicates to me that your teacher knows what she is doing. She sees that you have a problem learning a particular technique and she couldn't find any exercise in her resources to bridge the gap, so she makes up one.

I don't expect that she will want you to be playing that exercise all your life. Once you have accquired whatever it is she is trying to teach you ( in a week or two) you can dispense with the exercise.

That's how we should treat technical exercises. They are just tools that we use to help meet a specific need. Once we have achieved our goal they are dispensed with completely. You must know exactly what you want to achieve and which exercise can help you in that regard and move on once you're done.

regards,

dennis lee

I read this topic with interest, because I have had an ambivalent view of Czerny/Hanon over the years. My teacher gave me great advice - not to wear myself out doing Hanon, because by the time you'd done the Hanon routine, you're too exhausted to practice the thing you want to actually play. All the same, he pointed out that if you do just one of them carefully and thoughtfully (paying attention to arm weight, posture, balance of your hand, maybe introducing dynamics or articulation) they can be useful.

There are two things that strike me from all this:

• Exercises aren't like magic spells (i.e. you can't just recite them to make your technique better). It's how you do them that counts.
  
• Up to a point, you have to do what works for you, never mind the theory or the principle.
  

But like I said, I'm ambivalent: Gary Lineker once said he ate scrambled egg before every game. Hanon has at times been my 'scrambled egg' - it's given me some kind of ritual, secure, familiar and untaxing way of focusing my attention before getting to grips with knottier musical problems. If I haven't got the brain to practice intelligently, I know that a bit of Hanon will at least exercise my fingers usefully.

Dennis,
Excellent book. I read it a couple of days ago and have already taken up some of the techniques with good results. It's obviously very forward thinking and I hope people on this forum take a bit of time to read it-or at least a bit of it.

Going back to the original question, I'm including a link here that's directly related and has some fascinating information on Chopin. it's written, partly, by a highly experienced teacher. The name on the left that you'll want is Axtremus.

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimate...pic/2/5157.html

Lucy

Hm.. I used to play hanon, but I stopped because I found it totally useless (no offense to anyone whatsoever.) I believe that was because I used it for the wrong purpose though. I broke the fourth finger on my left, and was trying to regain its strength/agility etc. But Hanon did not help, and only made my hand feel like a dead fish after I was done.

I now play Czerny, because the exercises are (frankly) easier to manage as compared to Hanon. Though my tecbhique *sigh* have not made much improvement, it serves as a good warmup alternative compared to scales.

QUOTE (lucy @ Jun 23 2004, 03:38 PM)

Dennis, Excellent book. I read it a couple of days ago and have already taken up some of the techniques with good results. It's obviously very forward thinking and I hope people on this forum take a bit of time to read it-or at least a bit of it. Going back to the original question, I'm including a link here that's directly related and has some fascinating information on Chopin. it's written, partly, by  a highly experienced teacher. The name on the left that you'll want is Axtremus. http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimate...pic/2/5157.html Lucy

Lucy,

Thank you for your post. You just made my day. Not because you agreed with me, although it is nice to have someone agree with you, but because you actually read the book(s) and found them useful. BTW, which book was it that you read? I'd really hate to see someone else wait some years (in my case 25) before finding out what their mistakes were. Glad to be of help.

You said it only took you 2 days before you saw results? Wow, you're way ahead of me. Good for you. Maybe if enough people on this forum read those books and started thinking about their practice habits we can start another thread on good practice habits and technique acquisition.

Now about the post in the pianoworld forum. The original post was actually taken from the pianoforum forum (www.pianoforum.net) and the poster logs in as Bernhard (Axtremus also frequents pianoforum just like I do). This Bernhard guy is amazing. He has an amazing amount of facts at his finger tips. He says he does prepare his posts but he is still amazing nevertheless. If you have any questions about the piano do check over there. I'm sure you'll find some needed help.

TTFN (Ta Ta For Now)

dennis lee

Dennis,
The book I downloaded is called Fundamentals of Piano Practice. The bits that made the biggest difference to me were a) practising H.S. and the gravity drop.
I've been having a lot of stiffness in my left wrist recently and the H.S. practise has taken a lot of pressure off. It's also made a big difference to learning new pieces with regard to speed, accuracy and most of all tonal quality as I'm now, with H.S., able to incorporate that from the beginning instead of bashing the tune out H.T. and then trying to make it sound nice afterwards. I really prefer this approach.
These forums are so useful. I read stuff on piano world that's way in advance of where I am but the variety of approaches to different problems is great.
Cheers,
Lucy

QUOTE

And to comment of tackle grade 8 in 3 years that is IMPOSSIBLE to do no matter how genius and talented you are  , except IF in those 3 years what you do is only to learn the scales, aural, and pieces required in the exam books grade 1 to 8.

This is my first post, and I don't want to sound bigheaded or anything, but I went from not knowing anything about the piano to grade 8 in 2yrs6mths. I entered grade 3 the term after I began lessons, then took grade 5, grade 7 and 8. I was 12 when I started playing. The day that my parents brought the piano home was probably the best and worst day of my life, as I knew that I had it in me to play but didn't know how to. My mum bought me some books and that was it, I didn't stop playing morning till night, (incidentally, I played loads of stuff that wasn't on my exam syllabus as well)

In reply to Dennis' comments about Hanon and Czerny. I must say that when I was playing as much as I was, I didn't really need the extra technical work, I guess I was playing so much that my fingers were very exercised! However, I bought a Czerny book last week, and am playing a few a day. This is probably because unfortunately I don't have time to practise anymore, (I'm 30 with children, teaching piano etc) so they help to keep my fingers in step. Maybe that's the key, Czerny for those who are short of time?

Wow possum, that's brilliant. Good for you.
What's your favourite piece to play?

Thanks Lucy

My favourite piece at the moment is Beethovens Appassionata sonata, i'm nowhere near perfecting it but love to play it when I get a spare half hour, especially when the weathers bad!

I also play hanon, and i think that its one of the best to develop strength in the wrist... try to take rests if you start hurting badly, but you'll get used to it after a few months... in the meantime keep practicing.