I'm trying to learn chinese because I've got a chinese friend who I'm next seeing on the 17th June. Anyway, I told her that by the time I saw her again, I'd be able to say a bit more in chinese than what she'd taught me, but it's really hard!lol

Sooooo, can anyone explain to me what the 4th tone noise is? I get the other two, after words she taught me were used as examples, but I don't know/can't think any with a fourth tone noise in!

Do you mean fourth-tone noise as in:

Ā á ă à

1 2 3 4

Kind of like the way you say them in Chinese phonetics? (pin yin)

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Are you learning mandarin or cantonese? I only speak Mandarin but I think Noodelz can help with Cantonese...

Sorry, I am a chinese but the only thing chinese I know is numbers....lol, I know, very embarressing.

Yeah that's it! I'm learning mandarin, but my friend speaks cantonese. So we're learning it together Excpt she'll have a slight advantage....

Have you got any pointers as how I learn it?! I really struggle with prononciation, but once I can say it, I can remember the words.

I recall there was a book... think it was Teach Yourself. The first one is standard tone; the second one, raise your eyebrows as you say the word; the third one, lower your chin into your neck, and then lift it again as you say the word; and the fourth one, stamp your foot as you say the word. It's meant to work... The fourth one should be a drop in tone apparently, but I'm no expert!

tzl tzl - same, but my parents only know Hokkien anyway, and cannot write in Chinese.

~Wobby~

A drop in tone sounds about right.



I moved from China to England when I was 3 and in the struggle to learn Ebglish, I forgot nearly all my Chinese, though I could still listen and speak perfectly well as thats what we speak at home.

Started trying to relearn stuff when I was about 7. I had a set of Chinese books that really helped. They started off with PinYin, then really simple words, little rhymes and poems and stuff and moved onto more complicated words and pieces as the books progressed. Technically they were meant to be for Chinese 1 or 2 year olds but oh well, they helped me!

I'm not sure how I can help Elmo, as I cant really imagine what it is like to learn from scratch, it must be incredibly hard! I'll have a look for websites and stuff...I'm sure there must be some where they have pointers for Chinese pronunciation.

Edit: Just tried out this one and it sounds ok
http://www.bbc.co.uk/languages/chinese/real_chinese/

Totally random and off the point, I realise, but does any know how you would sing in a tonal language like Chinese? Wouldn't the melody change the tones and hence the meaning of the words? There must be a way but I can't think how.

Never really thought of that. I don't think it does, occasionally you are allowed to change the tone of the word if it is difficult to say in a sentance. As long as people know what you're saying (common phrases etc.) it's OK.

There is a slight difference between the melody and the tones. Sometimes you have to rely on the context of the lyrics to determine what they're saying though.

I've never quite thought of it in that way but like Noodelz says, there is a difference between melody and tone. The way you pronounce the syllables and stuff depends more on your inflection (if thats the right word), and you can sing different words to the same melody and vice versa.

Thanks for the link CPPF. I have the teach yourself beginner's chinese, but I have to look up every syllable before I can say a word!

I have another friend who sings in chinese, but I cant remember what she said about it!

One of my friend is also learning Chinese....it's not that hard, and good luck for it!!

http://www.travlang.com/languages/mandarin
http://www.travlang.com/languages/mandarin...e.mandarin.html
http://www.sinosplice.com/lang/pronunciation/03/

See if these links can serve as quick guides to you.

Amie

Hey I'm a singaporean chinese!
:-}

It's probably not as hard if you have a teacher! I knew I'd find it difficult which is why I wanted to try it! I've learned the basics of lots of European languages and never had trouble, it's just coz chinese is sooooo different from anything I've ever spoken.

Thanks for the links I'll try them later, coz I have to go to work soon!

yea, a teacher certainly helps...so why not get one??

i am a hong kong chinese

I can help with your Chinese if you want:)


Iris

Coz I can't afford a piano teacher never mind a chinese one!



wooooo wicked! What can you teach me?

Have you tried stamping your foot whilst saying the word to attain the fourth tone yet?

~Wobby~

I don't understand how stamping your foot can help you attain the fourth tone.

Oh BTW, chinese is hard. There's no special way to 'sound out' the word from reading it (it gets even more confusing in cantonese where what you speak can be completely different to what you write). Sometimes you can guess what it sounds like but I imagine everything is muddled up when you start writing it down in simplified chinese (which is accepted as how you write mandarin). Learning phrases will be OK but if you wish to learn a bit more, you're going to have to dig deeper and understand what each word means. While you don't have to learn to write it, at least try to see how it all comes together.

Don't think the last bit was clear.

CPPF,

If it's only 4 tones, then it has to be Mandarin!

Woops! Sorry, on reading the next few posts, I then realised that this query has already been answered! Oh well, all the best, my friend. It's a hard language.

Why, whats Cantonese like?

Cantonese is much harder with a lot more levels of pitch! Moreover, Mandarin is not only simpler to learn but it also sounds more refined. I like Mandarin more but I can only speak Cantonese. I'm trilingual but still find Chinese writing tough! However, I'm planning to bring VN to China some day (Shanghai/Beijing) for one whole summer so we can learn it crash-style together.

I'm going to Shanghai and Beijing (and Changchun) this summer!
eek Cantonese sounds hard! I find Mandarin reading and writing really tough too, and I don't get enough practice

I'm chinese but i which type are you trying to learn? Cantonese, Mandarin etc...?

Yeah I don't get how that helps



Mandarin! woooo!

I have wondered the same thing myself

Mandarin is so pretty!

You should really go for Cantonese, cantonese is much harder so that if you know Cantonese, then Mandarin is not a problem at all.

Just for amusement on subject of singing in Cantonese. Please listen to the song at:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVvsjty7FPw...%81%8A%E6%88%B2

Kemis is a negro and he sings a popular Cantonese song by a HK pop singer Edmund. When I first listened to his singing on a radio, my impression was that he sang beautifully and could not believe that he is a foreigner and does not know cantonese! Not to mention the meaning of this song.

When I was still young, Mandarin is the third and optional dialect to us in HK other than Cantonese and English. And we learned it by listening to lots of mandarin songs and not at school.

Generally speaking, Chinese is an official recognized language like English. Mandarin and Cantonese are two types of dialects of Chinese. For a beginner, learning Mandarin is easier and better, as every words of it can be spoken and written down, whilst Cantonese is not the same. And if you can master Mandarin, you can easily switch the tone to Cantonese but with Cantonese, it is not vice versa.

BTW, cppf, for visiting Beijing, Shanghai, Changchun etc, Mandarin is still the official dialect. In fact, except places like Guangzhou or southern down can Cantonese be understood.

Amie

i speak cantonese and it has like 9 tones people said.
even people speak cantonese they write in mardarin because cantonese is not that easy to understand when it is written down and it is not posh enough.

Cantonese is really hard to learn, you could simply get your pronounciation and tone wrongly and you end up saying a bad word. As i said earlier, I only know numbers. =]

Oh dear, if I follow the logic, VN and I should learn Greek, too! Sorry, just pulling your leg! Seriously, too few people will speak Cantonese in 30/40 yrs' time when I'm dead and gone so I'd better encourage VN to learn Mandarin instead - the official language of China and other "Chinese" nations.

Tzl, tzl, you are so right! I tried once to teach VN a Cantonese Chinese greeting a long time ago and she ended up saying something quite indecent inadvertently (as she struggled with the word "year" etc over and over again, repeating that word wrongly) due to the wrong pitch levels! There should be a warning sign like on the cigar packet for those considering learning Cantonese!

Cantonese will probably die out after 60 years or so. Only Hong Kong speaks it officially I think but if you go there now, you're going no-where speaking it. Learn Mandarin, much easier to pronounce things correctly.

Does anyone get called a 'banana' because they can't read/write chinese properly?

I get called a banana simply because I ask to be. I also get called Susan. My name's Matthew.

I have learnt 4 and can speak 3 fluently one of which is Cantonese but definitely not Mandarin! When Cantonese dies out, I'll be demoted to being bilingual. Had better learn my Mandarin, Russian and Italian quickly!

My friend said that the official language in HK is now Mandarin?

The official languages of HK are cantonese and english. I can't see that carry on for many more years though.

But she said the kids in schools are now being taught mandarin, and she has to learn it since cantoneese can't be officially spoken???? Or is it in the process of changing?

Yes, students do have Mandarin classes as a subject in HK high schools, but the matter of fact is, still all local HKers communicate in Cantonese. ( can't argue on this elmo....not to a HKer... )


41 years instead, since China declares that HK will remind unchange for 50 years from the year of re-unitation (1997).


That's no true. Macau and all other parts of GongDong speaks Cantonese as well. Us HKers can not the lonely ones.

*Raises hand*

Yes, my friends call me that. My friends talk Cantonese and hokkien most of the time and rarely Mandarin. I can understand some words that I picked out from them but I can't speak or write anything except numbers. Previously I can only do 1 to 10 but now, my friend is teaching me 1 to 100 in hokkien.

Noodelz, at times, we will tease someone as stupid as ‘banana’ because the pronunciation of ‘ban’ in ‘ banana’ is stupid in Cantonese.



Tess, if you can speak fluent Cantonese, then you can learn Mandarin more quickly than a new language.



These are factual and exactly the situation for HK. When China took over the sovereignty in 1997, everyone was thinking that Mandarin would replace English as the one of the official language but never with Cantonese. However, since HK is still an international city, nowadays, Mandarin and English bear the same weigh therefore both languages are being taught at schools.

Cantonese will not die out even after 41 years, as it is a major dialect of Chinese, rank second to Mandarin in Chinese language. When people communicate in Cantonese, we have the affectionate and intimate feeling especially in non-chinese community.

Amie

Wow...I'm HKer and I still don't get what you mean....it is suppose to be a kind of Cantonese pronounciation??

Oh, still have the weird code in my browser.

I mean the pronunciation of 'ban' in 'banana', say it with a heavy vowel similar to 'bun' in 'bundle', and the pitch will be the cantonese meaning of stupid. get it?

Amie

I see ...I see.....lol...in a rather literally way...
And that's the fun thing about Cantonese: what you speak is different to what you write. Some of thing that you say cannot be literally written down...

Just want to add that there is no offence to banana. It's a cutie way to tease someone.

In fact, I like bananas and it is my favourite fruit among all.

Amie

Me, too. I love bananas! Yes, I'm not a Hker but I was there working as an expat many years ago and "bun" was a common or jokey way of telling someone they are daft/stupid!

Yep I know how you feel - I'm British but I still find Ebglish difficult to speak....... now English on the other hand...........

I read an interesting article in the Times Education Supplement yesterday about the teaching of Mandarin in British schools. Apparently more and more schools are now offering it, even up to GCSE and A level! (Though they are pushing for the syllabus to be changed to bring it in line with other language syllabuses.) I think the general view here is that schools will eventually offer Mandarin in the way they currently offer French or German. In fact, French is on the decline (globally). The languages that will apparently dominate world business in a few years are Mandarin, Spanish and Arabic and schools are, I'm told, beginning to address this.

I am seriously tempted to try to learn Mandarin having read all of this. And also seeing as I am practically the only person on the forum who can't speak it at present...

*hides*