Hmmmm well the other day I was thinking about transposing instruments and why we actually have them?
The questions been bugging me since my mum asked the other day. I usually have an answer to everything; but for once i couldn't find an answer!

Does anyone have any explanations of why we have them? Why don't we all play at standard pitch? wouldn't it make more sense? It only causes more confusion for both the player and anyone who has to transpose for them!

Anyone care to shed some light on the matter please!

Very interesting point as a player of a transposing instrument i would LOVE to give you an answer but can't maybe it was to keep composers on their toes?!?!?!

There is such thing as a C Clarinet so yep in theory it could be done!!

Thats what I was thinking! Everyones lives would be much less complicated!

The C clarinet that I guess you are thinking of Nicia is the Lyons C clarinet, and I'm willing to bet that you don't want to swap your Bb for one of those!

One of the reasons why orchestral clari players have 2 instruments (Bb and A) is to make it easier to play in certain key signatures.

For Horns, it's because of tuning, and because I think Horns in different keys (with different crooks, in the days of the natural Horn) have slightly different edges to the sound (like if you bang mouthpieces around in different ways). People decided the Horn in F sounded "right", and then the B flat side was incorporated into most double Horns because the high notes are much better in tune. If we were in C I think we'd probably be horribly tuned and we'd have to lip things down and up and around. So we need transposing instruments to preserve the piece (that was a typo, but it fits so I'm leaving it!)

Besides, in the old days, most transposing instruments weren't transposing at all. Horns had slide-in crooks for all the common keys, so it was like having an adapted instruments for each.

Because, say we had to play a B Flat clarinet in a band and then an A in an orchestra we would have to learn different fingerings for each one and that would be dead confusing.

Recorder players have to learn different fingerings!

In orchestra the trombone (played in the bass clef) is not transposing - in big band and brass bands it is (played in the treble). In the treble clef, first position is C, whereas in bass clef it's a Bflat. The C positioning is, I think, much easier to get your head round. (I can play both, and I definitely find treble clef more straightforward). I suspect that this is the reason for this kind of transposition. It might make arranging hard, but it probably makes the playing a lot easier.

I've got a Patricola C clarinet - it's a nice little instrument, but the tone isn't as full and mellow as that of my Bbs and As. The standard clarinet has probably remained as a Bb/A because that size of instrument is the most conducive to a good tone - I believe there were clarinets in all sorts of keys in the past.

There are still recorders available in other keys than the standard F and C - noisybassoon has a descant in Bb, and someone else I know has a bass in G - and then there are voice-flutes (not quite sure what key those are in - D, I think)

If the tone on these instruments are somewhat superior, then why don't you re-learn the fingerings to have different note names then you'd be playing in C...right?

That's almost what gets done with the Bb side, actually - you never think you're playing the Horn in Bb because you have re-associated note names to match the F. I don't actually know why this wasn't done originally, but can only hazard a guess that it's something to do with the fact the valves were a later thing.

Ah well, at least we like being different!

I was always under the impression that it was so that music could be written on the stave more easily, without loads of leger lines.

That's how I have always understood it - and also partly due not so much to good vs bad tone, but due to the tone that people were used to. I'm told there's a difference in tone even between Bb and A clarinets, so to put all clarinets into C would change the sound a fair amount.

Yes, jo, I think voice-flutes are in D.

Piers Adams has a treble in Ab to play Krahmer on...

That's interesting - I guess it's because the csakan (for which all those Krahmer pieces were written) was pitched in Ab. I remember my Dip pupils writing about that in their programme notes - so far all my Dip pupils have chosen a Krahmer piece as their 'own choice' part of the programme. They're such good showpieces!

You're quite right Sarah. The difference in tone is slight, but it is there - and a C clarinet will sound slightly different again. Generally, the smaller the clarinet, the brighter the tone, but of course there are other variables to throw in that are outside the scope of this thread.

Yeah, i agree that its to make swapping between instruments easier. For example flute and clarinet actually have very simular fingerings, but are if they were both in C a clarinets fingerings would be very different. Its just to help people that play more than one instrument i think. However it does cause a few arguments in bands etc at school when either the flutes end up with loadsa flats or the calinets get loadsa sharps (they don't seem to be able to find any music in either C, D or F major for concert pitch instruments). Apparently its the flutes fault for being in a freakish key, i would say that seems we're in concert pitch its the clarinets fault though - heehee!!

Historically there were clarinets, trumpets, horns, in a whole variety of keys.

This is all to do with the tone of the instrument. C Clarinets are remarkably harsh (as in Mahler 1, etc), so Bb and A instruments are used as they have a nicer sound, and you can swap between the two to make the playing easier - that is why you read and finger the notes the same on all clarinets, so you don't have to learn 3 or 4 different instruments just to be able to play the Clarinet!

Most of the time composers rarely specified the instrument to be used - that was left up to the copyists (though obviously in the Mahler C's were specified in the last movement). One aria in Cosi fan Tutti actually calls for Clarinets in H (B natural) in an early score!

I have actually seen professional wooden clarinets in c! made by buffet! I have a Bb and an A as i play in an orcheatra! anyone ever played one of the professional c clarinet?

I guess it's because instruments give optimum tone quality when tuned to a certain pitch. Apparently the C clarinet was rejected from the classical orchestra because it was too bright, and Bb and A were more acceptable. The advantage of transposition is to keep the fingerings broadly similar on Bb clarinet, A clarinet, bass, Eb, flute, alto sax, tenor tax, soprano sax, bari sax, etc. Actually, recorder players have to play in F and C fingerings so it's just like the two registers on the clarinet, which overblows at the 12th instead of the octave.

Yes, Jo, it's because they were written for the csakan. My brain was a bit fried last night so I didn't explain WHY he has this wonderful Ab treble! I agree, I think the Krahmer pieces are absolutely wonderful showpieces. I know they can be a bit decried as just 'salon music' but I love them!!

Incidentally, Piers also has an instrument that he describes as a pea-shooter (!) upon which he plays van Eyck pieces - I'm not sure if that's in a different key - the instrument itself certainly looks an unusual size - anyone know the answer? (No good e-mailing Piers to ask - one usually gets a reply about 3 years later )

Piers uses several recorders in various keys, last time I looked at his site. Does he learn different fingerings for each one then?

Pity he doesn't answer emails though. He must not like doing so.

Yes, he DOES learn different fingerings for each one! Grrrrrr....

Re the e-mails - he's a bit of a free spirit! Baggy usually manages to get a response before TOO long