A few years ago, I took a notion to teach myself the cello. I started off renting one from our local music shop and after 6 months had to either buy it with the rental money deducted from the cost or return it. I bought it, but now that I'm about to do grade 6, I feel that the cheapest cello I could get hold of really isn't suitable any more.

Any recommendations for a good value for money cello suitable for higher grades? I don't have a specific budget in mind as long as it's a good quality instrument.

Thanks.

If you can afford to splash out - buy local and support local lutherie. If you want to spend less and still get a reasonable instrument, some of the Chinese ones are not at all bad (they sell for around three thousand in France), although the set up generally needs to be altered.

I have a gliga gama cello (you'll get one for around the same price as a Chinese one) and it looks beautiful. I'm not overly impressed at the sound, to be honest, though. I loved it at first, but have slowly come to realise that it is too muffled and a little uninteresting. I'm now looking at an antique Mirecourt cello (just under ten thousand) which sounds glorious, looks beautiful and will serve me without me ever having to change. The problem is - of course - the price. If I can raise the cash, I may well buy it.

So if you don't really have a specific price in mind, check out something antique, or have a local maker build one for you - if you want a good sounding cello for a reasonable price, aim for something at the top end of the Chinese ones but I (sadly) have to say that I don't really recommend the Gligas here (although their violins are glorious as are their Violas - heartfelt recommendation there ) In either case, I would recommend going along to a luthier and playing a load of cellos - perhaps taking some on approval. If you do this with three or four shops, you'll have an excellent selection to choose from. I also recommend you make a list of characteristics you are specifically looking for with tick boxes beside them, because it can get really hard to remember which one was which when you're testing!

Let us know what you decide and - above all - have fun choosing!

Allan, put Helicore strings on it. Gama cellos are normally gorgeous. It could be that you've got a duff one of course (it hasn't got a newspaper stuffed inside it by any chance?) - or - dare I say it? - it could just be that you are the limiting factor .....

We're picking up a Gama cello tomorrow from our repairer for a buyer who wanted the best possible set up. Our repairer happens to be a professional cellist and we are desperately hoping he will record it for us. If so, a soundfile will go up on our website asap. I was hoping for Allan's rendition of the swan too

We have found some nice Chinese cellos which always sell quickly and (gasp) the ones we've tried seem to beat the Gliga Gems on a pound for pound basis. We do not have any right now and won't have for some time, but I'd love to get some higher models in when we next order. Unfortunately the problem with buying anything from China is the huge (in our terms) financial commitment you need up front and the fact that its ten weeks minimum before you see any of your money again (which of course is why wholesalers' margins are so huge). If we could buy them the way we buy Gligas, we'd get a lot more from China

Liz

I bought a new cello recently - an "Artiste" by J Haide, for just under £2,000 and I am very pleased with it. It is well made and has a lovely tone. It is, I believe, of Chinese origin, but the Haide label is American. I bought it from a local luthier who is very reliable and definitely does not sell rubbish. PM me if you would like more details.

Hey Liz,

It's set up with a Larsen solo A, Jargar on the D and A and a Wolfram (120 EUROS - SHOCK!) for the C - the luthier worked with a load of different combinations when setting it up and said that was the best.

I'm certain I'm the limiting factor! However, my teacher played it and was less than impressed too - he said it lacked projection and he was finding it difficult to get any aggression - it could just be a dud, I suppose, but I supplied a gems cello to a client too and was a little unhappy with that too. I don't understand it because, in my humble opinion, the gama violin / viola range takes some beating in that price range. They both could have been duds, I suppose.

You're on for the recording of the Swan - I'm recording some Chopin and Haydn at the moment to kind of chart my progress on the forumrecordings site, but I'm hoping the swan won't be long before it's ready.

Allan

Allan, I have to question your luthier's sanity. Jargars will kill a Gama stone dead. They're perfect for bright loud Chinese instruments. Not for a Gama. Never tried a Wolfram (never SEEN one!)


Now that's unlikely unless Gliga are treating you very differently to the way they're treating us!

We've only ever had two Gliga cellos back. One was a half size Genial 2, sold at cost, and was a very obvious teacher kickback situation (you know how you can spot them a mile off?) and the other was my fault entirely (embarrassing admission follows).

I'd tested this gama cello as I do all of them and found no fault with it. We sent it out to the customer and she was complaining that the bridge was far too high. Now I'm no cellist but I do always check thumb position so I was baffled - until it came back, minus the fingerboard which had fallen off in transit (it was very hot, I have no other explanation). On checking where the fingerboard was meant to be, it became blindingly obvious that the bridge was miles too high - it turned out to be a faulty neck angle. But quite how I missed that I simply cannot imagine. One could almost have thought it was a matter of "buy and switch" but there are so few Gama cellos around that such a thing really does seem unlikely, so I remain baffled about that. Anyway, that one would certainly have sold if it were not for the neck angle, the teacher and luthier both said that it was in a quite different league from the Messina that the customer ended up buying and tried to persuade her to get the set up work done (if we'd realised what the problem was we would have done that at our expense of course) but she didn't want to take the risk and since we didn't realise that there really was a problem, we didn't offer to pay for any extra work on it. We did of course refund her return postage once we realised that there really was a fault with it.

One of the treats we had once, was to hear a Gama cello played by a RNCM graduate. She hadn't played for 20 years and she picked it up and played the Elgar to us. Not fair! We could actually feel the resonance through the floorboards, it was quite something - and the player was raving about the resonance and the lack of wolf notes (as have several other good players). We've also sold one to a "grade 7" player who turned out to be nearer dipABRSM than grade 7 (he was worth hearing too!), and to a pupil at a specialist music school. Both were very well received by the teachers concerned. Also of course to several other players of a lower level.

Anyway, we'll see what this Gama is like that we're collecting tomorrow. I hope Gliga haven't suddenly gone downhill or something, that would be SERIOUSLY bad news


Give us the url when you have anything on the site - I shall look forward to hearing you.

Liz




Our repairer who is also a professional cellist swears by the Jay Haide antiqued one.

Liz

Hey allan, I've heard very similar reports to this on cello fun. Consensus seems to be that they're variable, but often lacking projection.

The consensus I picked up (but can't remember where from except that, like most forums, it was US dominated) was that everything depends on the set up - that those who had got them direct from Romania (which in practice probably means through the US dealer) did not rate them as highly as those who got them through one of the music shops in the US that had set them up. To be fair, since the second group of people would have paid an awful lot more than the first, this isn't really surprising.

Liz

I bought the "new" finish one, not the antiqued one. I liked the look of the antiqued one, but after trying both preferred the tone quality of the new finish, especially on the C string ... and it was quite a bit cheaper.

Ok, it's eat humble pie time. Allan, where are you?

We went to get the Gama cello from the repairer today. He had set it up with a professional quality bridge and soundpost and all sort of other tweakings had been done - he's a professional cellis as I said, and when he played it to us it really didn't sound very special. I said "that doesn't sound like a Gama". He said "why not?" and I said "Gamas are much richer than that". The tentative conclusion was that the Helicore strings complement the usual Gliga workshop set up very well but that the effect of the much harder bridge (it's "the best you can get" apparently - £50 trade before the luthier does anything with it at all) combined with the rather hard Helicore strings gave a tone which was simply too hard. So - Larsens were put on. Wow, what a difference, it just sounded like a cello in a totally different league. On CD I have before and after recordings which I will get up on the web for interest, once I get my new PC up and running which will hopefully be tomorrow or Friday (had to have a new one when the hard drive on my old one died - have been managing on a rather primitive laptop for ten days or so)

And Allan, we've got a recording of the swan on the cd

I'd love to hear the recordings when they go up, Liz.

I'm really looking forward to hearing the outcome, Liz!

I have one Larsen on my cello (the A - a Larsen Soloist) and it's good - the Wolfram C is magnificent, but the whole effect is rather unappealing and yet my luthier has worked wonders on instruments in the past (she got a gems 2 sounding like a gama 1 and even had a genial sounding like a very nice instrument too) - the tone isn't too hard or harsh - but too damped and muffled and string changings appear not to have had any effect. I think it may be simply a case of a dud Gama (I had a dud gama violin from them once too, but on the whole the gama range continues to astonish me) - I'm putting it down to experience, will sell the cello and then consider what to do. I may well opt for the French cello as I'm trying to support local lutherie, but then the idea of a gama cello (if it works well) just makes me so excited, so I'm counting on your recordings to give me faith again!

Maybe I'll go to Romania and tell them I want no more nonsense and I want the best Gama they've got...

Inspire me!

Allan

Well, the way you wake instruments up quickly is by playing lots of double stops on them. Do they do scales in sixths for cellos? It would be great practice for you

I've got the soundfiles on the laptop now. On the laptop speakers of course there is no apparent difference between the two sets of soundfiles . Now the computer shop we went to had some really high quality speakers which really did make computer sound files sound as if it was a hi fi playing. £130 a pair though ....

Liz

When I looked for my full size cello, Noodle, I tried quite a few and had great fun! I think that that was the best way to find out what worked for me, because now, lots of people try my cello and say, "I can't play your cello - I can't get it to make a nice tone!" But I don't have that problem. Therefore it's all down to your individual preferences really.

Have fun choosing...

You see, are you sure it's just your arm that hurts?? Clearly there is something wrong in the head department too ! I'll keep on struggling along with my shifting technique for now - albeit with just the one string involved. You, on the other hand, are welcome to play as many insanely difficult double stopped scales as you like on my cello should you be in North West France any time soon!

Allan

Finally, at last, the PC is working and so is the sound system, so I have the soundfiles. Here is the swan, played by a professional cellist (who claims to be a rusty one, fair enough) on the Gama 2 cello, with some adjustments, with Helicore strings and then Larsen strings. Recording was done in a rather dead workshop using a Sony mp3 recorder.

Helicores

Larsens

Alan, you're next

Liz

Liz

The Larsens recording has started at the beginning for me.

Cheers

katyjay

thanks it was just a temporary thing with not all the file having uploaded, I think.

Liz

A friend of mine has a Zeller cello which I really like and it is a massive improvement on my present cello. Can anyone compare a Zeller and a Gliga cello for me please?

Another query! If I decide to get a Gliga cello, does anyone know where I can get one and trade in my current cello? I realise this may infringe forum rules re advertising, so please PM me if you have any suggestions!

Thanks!

Don't know about Zellers specifically, but son got back from a residential orchestra course thing last night where his gliga gama had been much admired . The cello section course tutor had picked it out as her favorite (to the dismay of the lead cellist whose cello had recently cost £££££). There were 18 cellists, but only about half with full size cellos - one or two were £6k+ instruments, but I don't know any specific makes. His has had a new bridge (the original warped), but other than that it is as it came from Liz.

In general I'd say the gliga's look noticably thicker instruments than most and they are heavier than some - but ours sounds lovely and feels nice to play (so I'm told).

I can give you an answer based on the specification and on what I know of Zeller violins and violas. I've never played a zeller cello, only seen them: the Gliga Genial laminated cello is directly comparable to the lower of the two zellers. The Genial 2 cello is directly comparable to the higher of the two zellers. The Genial 1, Gems and Gama cellos are of higher quality.

Any dealer who deals with Beare and Sons wholesalers will be able to get Gliga Gama cellos at least - Beare and Sons latest catalogue lists those, but a note in it said that they are now stocking the whole range.

Liz

Thanks unmusicalmum and Liz!

Could I pick your brains once more please, Liz? I've just done grade 5 cello on the cheapest instrument I could get. I didn't think I'd play it more than a few months so I didn't want to spend a fortune on it! Which cello would you recommend as being suitable for someone of grade 5 -6 standard? I don't think I'll get much further than that and cello is not one of my main instruments.

Thanks!

Well, really, everything depends on your budget, but normally I'd recommend a Gems 2 for that standard.

Liz

I'd heartily second that recommendation. If you did decide to continue, with the right set up a Gems two could take you to grade 8.

Thanks everyone for your input and advice here.

I was in our local music shop today and they just have Zeller cellos. I tried it but it doesn't seem to sound as good as the Zeller my friend owns. If I can decide which cello I want, they will try and get it for me and I can trade in my present cello. Unfortunately, they haven't heard of Gliga and it's unlikely they will be able to get one.

I don't know what to do now! Should I go for the better of the two Zellers (it is a massive improvement on my present cello) or should I figure out a way of getting a Gliga?

Does the shop that you went to have a good luthier, and do they know how to do a decent set up?

I'm incredibly happy with my Gewa. I bought it for £1000, and have had really good aftercare from the luthier as part of that. It's a nice cello with a good full bodied sound. If you're looking for a brand to ask them to get in for you, I'd say this is pretty good, in the price range. Most people who hear it think it sounds better than £1000 worth.

Getting a Gliga is not at all difficult - try a websearch. How much do you want to spend and how much would the better Zeller cost you?

One thing to bear in mind is that stringed instruments improve with age - and humidity changes. A new instrument is not going to sound as good as one of the same brand that has aged.

Liz

I tried a websearch on Gewa cello after I got your PM meerkat, I looked at over 12 pages of strings, violin bows, tuning forks, even sax reed cases, but not a sign of the instrument itself. I'll try again tomorrow. I must find out about the luthier. Thanks!

Can't talk about your existing cello here - it will be construed as you advertising it

Liz

not sure if you speak german, noodle, but here it is on a German site. Very cheap there too! It is a German cello, so I guess cheaper in Germany? Also if you bought direct from here, you'd have to think about set up.

http://www.musik-direkt.com/query.php?cp_s...3&cp_cat=86

or

http://www.ymak.de/shop/product_info.php?products_id=3502

I think though, as Liz pointed out, set up is everything with instruments in this kind of price range. You need to be sure you've got access to a good luthier, either through your music shop or elsewhere. I guess if you bought this online you'd need to spend a further £100-150 on strings, you'd need a bow, and you'd need a luthier to adjust the bridge and the soundpost, both when you buy it, and once it's had a settling in period.

Thanks very much meerkat. That looks really impressive. Fortunately I did O level German so I can understand some of it.

At the risk of incurring wrath, I doubt very much that the Gewa in those links is German. Reasons: 1. the price is too low 2. Gewa's own website says this "Today, GEWA uses the global opportunities that the production and marketing of musical instruments has to offer."
3. and this "The production of high level string instruments and cases is also situated in Adorf " - which strongly implies to me that the production of lower models is situated elsewhere. What I don't know is which models Gewa consider to be high level but clearly there are models well above the Concerto in price - the top one I found on that musik-direkt site is listed at 3490 euros.

So I strongly suspect it's Chinese and if the country of origin is important to you then you'd be well advised to ask.

Liz

They're part constructed in China and then completed in Germany (my luthier, who's visited the German factory, suggests that 'important stuff' is done in Germany, but that the parts for the cellos come from China). I think it does say that on the website.

I thought you didn't think country of origin really mattered that much, Liz? I'm sure we had a discussion not that long ago where you suggested that it was mere prejudice that prevented people from taking Chinese goods more seriously? Perhaps it was someone else?

All I know is that it's a great cello, and that I've had a lot of complimentary comments on it. Both my teachers have said it will take me past grade 8. I put a lot of that down to the very good set up.

Ah. I didn't find that.



No it was me - or if it wasn't me then I agree anyway. But what I DO object to is something that makes itself out to be German when it isn't (there are lots of stringed instruments in this category).

For reasons that are purely historical, there are still plenty of teachers out there who insist that something has to be German and those teachers are unlikely to realise that a German brand does not mean "made in Germany" these days. They don't realise because they are not up to date with things in the trade - no reason why they should be of course, personally I'd rather teachers commented on how an instrument played rather than on where it came from, but the plain fact remains that some still do say "German or nothing" and such teachers are likely to send their students looking for German sounding brands, and if those brands are actually Chinese then the student is paying through the nose for a name, which seems all wrong to me. Meanwhile the wholesaler is the one raking in the money hand over fist. Now you can't avoid people making mistakes of course - I've seen people swear black was white that their violin is English because it has "Stentor" on the label and Stentor is an English company - but you can avoid misleading people by giving German sounding names to Chinese instruments. Sorry but it's just a hobby horse of mine.

The best rule for the novice buyer is - if an instrument doesn't say where it's made, it's almost certainly made in China.



Well that's all any player needs to know really isn't it - if you're happy and the teacher is happy then that's great. Mind you, at your present rate of progress you'll be spending serious money in not too many years - the progress you've made in your first few months of playing is impressive to say the least

Liz

It does say on all the labelling for Gewa products how they're made, and David definitely went through it in a lot of detail when I bought it. I agree with you that honesty is what matters, really.

Actually I've just realised where the question about it being German came from - you said in post 30 "it's a German cello" and I assumed you meant "it's made in Germany" - we seem to have been at cross purposes.

David Snelling is certainly very honest and straightforward.

Liz

Thanks everyone for your help and advice in this thread. I decided in the end to get the Zeller cello as I'd already played one and really liked it. I'm sure the other makes of cello are just as good, but I didn't want to order an instrument online without hearing my attempt at playing it first.

I think that's probably sensible noodle. I bought online once, disastrously, and wouldn't repeat the exercise, unless someone would let me have the instrument on appro.

I hope you're really happy with your choice. Enjoy!

Thanks for all your advice meerkat. Yes, I'm really pleased with it. I put a set of Dominants on it and I was amazed at the difference in tone.

Cool. Is it a lot better than your old one?

What have you done / are you doing with your old one?

Any reputable shop will let you have the instrument on approval but there is another thing that needs to be shouted a lot more loudly than it is: if the online purchase is made from a business at a fixed price (as opposed to an ebay or other auction, or a purchase from a private individual) then you have IN LAW the right to return the item within seven working days of receipt, for any reason at all. This is part of the distance selling regulations and any shop that will not acknowledge this should certainly be steered well clear of! There are obvious exceptions like CDs, computer software and custom orders but for the great majority of musical instruments that is the law. I think the retailer is allowed to deduct reasonable expenses from the refund (we don't, though, and I suspect few retailers do unless they have good reason to think they are being messed around).

Speaking for ourselves (and I doubt if we are unusual in this respect) we always say, when a customer wants to order something that we do not regularly stock and it is something we do not want to be stuck with, "we're quite happy to order that for you but it would be a special order and we would not be keen to take it back unless it was faulty". That probably loses us a sale or two but we have to consider cash flow and having instruments hanging around unsold for years can be a major problem (we have too many of those at the moment!).

Liz

Yes, it is much better than my old one. It improved greatly yesterday when I replaced the strings with dominants. The old strings were gold coloured, anyone know what they might be? They seemed rather course and playing on the C and G strings hurt my fingers!

I traded the old cello in.

Unfortunately we don't have any music shops with a vast quantity of instruments. As Liz said, our main local music shop would have obtained any instrument for me, but it would have been a special order and I'd have been stuck with it. The only instrument I have ever got without playing it first was a white violin for about £30 on ebay. It is rather dire but I wanted it as an ornament not for it's playing quality! It has a nice case which is probably worth more than the instrument and bow!

Wooooooooooooooooo!! David Snelling did a little bit of work on my cello today and it sounds amazing! *goes to practise cello*

....great to hear that . My cello's sounding good too & G's violin is transformed by the adjustments to the soundpost & altering the bridge height

A properly set up Gliga should not be muffled - my guess is that something is wrong. Spend some money on a top level professional set up. You'll probably be amazed at the difference it makes. And it will cost you a lot less than 10k!

That said - I too have come across some very nice Chinese cellos, we used to regularly import one which competed very favourably even with the Gligas at the same price point (though I doubt if it would have been anywhere near as competitive if we had to buy it through a wholesaler). Alas, importing by sea from China involves tying vast amounts of money up for vast amounts of time and we're not big enough to be able to do that often.

Liz