Just wondering!!

How do you manage pupils who have only been taught to read every note when its been pencilled in letter name and fingering (piano) or A1 A2 A3 etc for violin?

I recently took on some pupils from another local teacher. Neither can read music unless every note name and finger is labouriously pencilled in( one was working towards G3 piano). I frequently get this in violin as well with pupils only knowing notes as A1 A2 A3, D1 D2 etc. again some were as high as Grade 3. Surely by then you should be able to read the notes with some accuracy!!

How do you get them reading the notes - ie letting them enjoy playing any music infront of them without having to have someone else write everything in for you?

I don't want to discourage them?

I think you are quite right to be concerned about discouragement. I take on quite a few pupils who are poor readers and they have to be introduced to it very gently. I try to start from the very beginning and feed in very simple reading exercises with lots of praise and encouragement every lesson. It will probably be a long time before their note reading is on a par with their other skills. Also have a look at other threads on the subject of note-reading.

How did these students manage sightreading in previous exams I wonder?

Although i can fluently read music in general (i do read the notes more for flute and the odd occasion when i play a bit of piano), but for violin i must admit i do still associate notes with finger numbers. Not so much that i need them written in, but when i see a note on the 2nd line from the top (for example), instead of thinking 'oh, thats a D' i think 'thats a 3rd finger on A'

I was like that until g3 or so(on the piano), because I didn't learn them proporly.
When my violin teacher did some note-reading exersizes( Write the name of the note that's written on paper) for a few weeks I was much better at it. As for the violin, the only way is to tell them all the notes and fingering to go with it after a several weeks or couple of months of the exersizes.

If you know them, it's VERY easy to sightread on the violin

I've opted to teaching them theory. It is amazing how, just by getting people to read notes away from the instrument they bacome more fluent.

I have a pianist who learnt everything that way, now I ask her the note name and ask her to find it on the piano and reward accordingly. This I appreciate is harder with the violin.

This pianist of mine has gone from having her music littered with fingerings to only having the important ones put in. Her playing has imporved exponentially. The best thing is she made this change with minimal encouragement.

I hvae picked up brass students who have "played the violin for about 2 years" and are "quite good according to their teacher - around grade 2 standard" to find they can't read music at all. It is shocking! I work as a peri for my local music service and these children had been taught by another peri for the service. I was staggered.
With brass, i start them reading straight away and alomost never put fingerings under or above notes. I might write the letter names so that they have to make the association themselves (ie oh, that's an e - I need to use my first and second valves together) without having to try an work out what the note is at the same time, but only for a very short time

Shortcomings in note reading are not always the fault of the teacher or even a learning problem with the student.
It's amazing how hard some children work on NOT learning something however much you work on it!

True! The only answer in this case is laboriously going over lots of sight-reading with them, whilst refusing to write in finger numbers - Is the note higher or lower than the last one? Ok, it's a leap; is it a line or a space - which line? Remember the key signature, etc, etc.

(The child will probably hate you for this, because he WILL have spent ages pointedly ignoring the notes that you're insisting he now look at, depending either on his memory, or on writing them in.)

I've created loads of mini worksheets for the children to do if there's a couple of minutes to spare while they're waiting for me to finish with the previous group. The worksheets are colour coded so they know which level they're working on and cover basic theory - recognising the notes, time signatures, basic rhythm, key signatures, etc. There is always a worksheet appropriate to the level attained so it's not something that they 'grow out of'.

The worksheets have proved to be an invaluable teaching tool as they highlight problems that are not always evident in a child's playing.

Sometimes the problem isn't in not knowing the names of the notes; there can be a psychological block in making the connection between what's on the page and playing that note. And when they've got too used at looking at their hands all the time, they can't remember where they are on the page once they HAVE found it! If they've got too used to finger numbers or letter names (I've NEVER understood the thinking behind the latter!!) being written in, they don't relate the shapes of the phrases to the melodies they will produce.

Not a very constructive comment - negativity all the way - sorry about that - but this is a reason why I'm not keen to take pupils from other teachers, unless there's a very solid reason for the move! You know within 10 minutes of the first lesson if the above is going to be a problem, and it suddenly becomes clear why they've left the other teacher! I.E. They've got by on memorising, and suddenly progress has ground to a halt, because there are now too many notes on the page to memorise! I find this a much bigger hurdle than starting with a completely new beginner who knows nothing at all about reading music. And I'm not just blaming other teachers here! I do have a couple of my own - intelligent peolple - who systematically grit their teeth and refuse to read the notes, working out all sorts of complicated strategies to learn their pieces by some other means.

While drilling note learning I also encourage reading the shape of the music (easier to see on piano than other instruments?) and interval recognition as this is the way a fluent reader will play.
For those who insist on looking down I hold a book over their hands so that they can't do that. I also play games where they place hands on the piano and close their eyes while I name either finger numbers, note names or direction and interval to move to depending on where they are at. This proves that it isn't necessary to look at the hands.

Keeping Theory of Music going in parallel with practical - or catching up as may be - that definitely works in many situations as has been suggested by a couple of contributors.

While on the subject I would express dismay that so may of the Piano Primers have too much fingering marked. You have to look hard to find books that omit over-detailed fingering!

From Day 1, I believe fingering should only be shown where it is not obvious, to serve as "milestones". You also encourage reading of intervals as has also been pointed out.

Sight reading and other playing without looking at hands is a related remedy. Again I agree that hiding the hands from the performer is a fun exercise. Some students habitually look down all the time - not realising that the vast majority of notes are correctly played through arm postion and good HAND POSITION. Finger position is a detail within the frame work of arm and hand position.

How about playing something simple by ear (that they can already sing), then writing it down? I have tried this with a student and it's fun and not laborious. She also composes little pieces that she then notates - this makes notation relevant and interesting rather than a chore.

This crossed my mind also. Do they actually take exams?

Having the option to do this on the computer is great!

Yes, the computer is faster and can play back the note the minute you click on the line or space to place it!

Ooh - that's a nice idea.

I inherited several piano pupils at the school where I teach who had been taught "the lazy way" by writing the letters above the notes - as had the recorder groups - grrrr!!

All except one managed pretty well to convert to no letter names, and even the oner that had more trouble was sightreading much better at the end of the year than she had been at the beginning.

I hate hate hate it!! How can anyone call themselves a music teacher who just writes in letter names?