Actually the version of that one that I remember is "John Sebastian Bach sat upon a tack, but he soon got up again with a howl!" I still remember some of the others, and somewhere I have the whole lot written down, but I haven't looked at them for years and hesitate to pass them on, because as you say, they do stick.

I learnt the French ones from the excellent teacher I had at school for music O and A levels, some years ago

What I like is the logical way they all relate to and derive from each other. My teacher had already retired from a full time job before she came to my school part-time, and had trained at the RAM, studying piano with Tobias Matthay who also edited the early ABRSM edition of the Bach preludes and fugues (linking two themes on this thread).

Taa was one beat whatever the time signature (so still taa for a e.g. dotted crotchet in 6/8).
A beat divided into two equal notes was ta-té.
A beat divided into four equal notes became ta-fa-té-fé, keeping exactly the same syllables for the beginnings of the two halves, and the same vowel sound within each half.
A beat divided into three equal notes was ta-té-ti, which subdivided into ta-fa-té-fé-ti-fi.
3/4 + 1/4 of a beat was ta-é-fé, showing the beginning of the second half clearly with the change of vowel.
Adding extra beats added a fresh -aa for each beat, so 2 beats taa-aa, 3 beats taa-aa-aa etc.
1 1/2 + half was taa-a-té.
And so on!

I like the substitution of k for f because it relates to double-tonguing for wind instruments.

She also had a music shorthand for taking rhythm dictation, which she related to the French time names. One beat was a down stroke, each added beat was a little hump to the right, I think two half-beats were a down-stroke followed by a diagonal up-stroke, but I don't remember all the details. I don't remember seeing those anywhere else, and I've no idea where she learnt them or whether she invented them. Has anyone else come across them?

This sounds like the sort of words she would love.
The rhythm is: four quavers / two crotchets / quaver, crotchet, quaver / minim. This is repeated about four times and only the last line is slightly different with four quavers / quaver, crotchet, quaver / quaver, crotchet, quaver / minim.



This is, of course, perfectly logical but not readily accessible to a nine-year-old who has not yet learnt fractions (or even division) at school.

Also saying the French words out loud does not automatically reflect the length of the note; Taa is just an elongated Ta so you have to remember where to lengthen the "a". Fitting English words to the tune means that the child can sing along while they're playing and have a good chance of getting the rhythm right. I borrowed the idea of "Bob the builder" from someone on another forum and this worked instantly for my daughter for dotted crotchet, quaver, crotchet , crotchetwhereas she had struggled with my "intellectual" explanation of where the beat fell for over a week.

Kerioboe, you don't have to go into a mathematical explanation of the French time names, as da capo has, in order to teach them. I find children learn them really quickly and with very few problems.

In answer to your question, the stresses are really the same because the crotchet/minim/crotchet pattern tends to occur in 2/2 metre.

I was thinking about the time names again this morning and realised that I don't know how either the original French or Kodaly deal with quick asymmetric rhythms such as 5/8 or 7/8 where the main beats are of different lengths. Cyrilla? One could obviously treat the quaver as the beat. I doubt if asymmetric beats featured much in older French music but Eastern European folk songs and dances are full of them.

In 5/8 or 7/8 you still just call them the same names - eg two quavers, crotchet quaver, two quavers in 7/8 would be ti-ti ta ti ti-ti, with the stresses on the first, third and sixth quaver beat in this instance.

She also had a music shorthand for taking rhythm dictation, which she related to the French time names. One beat was a down stroke, each added beat was a little hump to the right, I think two half-beats were a down-stroke followed by a diagonal up-stroke, but I don't remember all the details. I don't remember seeing those anywhere else, and I've no idea where she learnt them or whether she invented them. Has anyone else come across them?
Yes - or something similar, my head of music at high school way back used something like this for rhythm dictation.

btw your version of John Sebastian Bach sat upon a tack is the one I remember too.

(didn't go to the same school, did we ???!)

I withdraw the claim that John Sebastian Bach fell upon his back and howled rather than sat on a tack and said "ow". I'm sure I heard it the first way but I was driving home late at night, listening to Radio 3, and it was a while ago now, so I probably misremembered.

My apologies to the esteemed Mr Prout and his estate.

Not at all - it's quite possible there are various versions of this going around !