When I had my first piano lessons my teacher tried to make me use French counting names, ta tate etc and I hated them. I hated her too but that is another story! I think that they would work well for little French pupils but not for English or Welsh ones. I use my own for these. "tea" for crotchet, "coffee" for a pair of quavers, "caterpillar" for a group or four semi-quavers, "pelican" for a triplet etc. Does anyone actually use the French ones these days, and if so do pupils like them?

I use the Kodaly adaptations of them with great success. I think I came across the French ones as a child and didn't like them, but as a teacher I have yet to find a better way to teach rhythm. They are SO much more effective than 'counting'. They are also a huge help with dictation activities.

I think I have posted a list of the Kodaly variations on them before, but am happy to do so again if anyone would like them.

Personally I'm not in favour of using words such as 'tea' and 'coffee' on a regular basis (although I do sometimes get children to find their own words that would fit particular rhythms). I love the rhythm names because they are words solely for rhythms and don't have any other connotations.

I've never found a child who 'doesn't like them' because they just accept that these are the names of the rhythms!

I do use them at the beginning, it makes most of my students smile! I find using the French focuses their their attention on their rhythms better than freely clapping them. However I have used the tea coffee caterpillar idea the odd time or one student likes to make up her own words to sing along which works quite well for her, helps her find the notes on the piano and improves her aural capability.

I also have a wide range of percussion instruments that go beyond the normal glock/ tambourine idea and they enjoy saying the French while beating the rhythm while I play the pulse on some claves to prevent stopping and starting, I find it a good way for teaching pulse maintainance and also the beginnings of ensemble playing.

Tea, coffee, coca-cola, blackcurrant, lemonade: crotchet, quavers, semiquavers, quaver+two semiquavers, two semiquavers + quaver.

Pear, grapefruit, pineapple, watermelon: crotchet, quavers, triplet quavers, semiquavers

Rock-a-bye baby: siciliana rhythm: dotted quaver, semiquaver, quaver, crotchet, quaver

Humpty dumpty sat on a wall: crotchet quaver, crotchet quaver, three quavers dotted crotchet.

Occasionally I mix these up with interesting results. A recorder sight reading test piece this afternoon became rock-a-bye pineapple, pineapple pear, humpty dumpty pear.

The tricky last couple of bars of the Faure Sicilienne (from the bottom C for flautists) are on a wall, on a wall.

You realise I will now have to go and look at this to see which bit you mean? *grins*

I've realised it doesn't quite match what I said above. The missing link is that the first phrase of Faure's Sicilienne is 'O, humpty dumpty sat on a wall'.

I have the music open in front of me and all of a sudden it makes sense, but I don't know if I'll ever be able to play it with a straight face again

I have memories of teaching a young pupil the Bach Musette last year to the refrain "Big - caterpillar, big - caterpillar, ready for big green big green big green"
we still smile about it.

I have a wonderfully creative piano teacher. I was recently making lots of rhythm mistakes, and the phrase in question became: I'll go to Constantinople Mississippi. It fixed the problem immediately, but I have yet to check the map for a Constantinople in that state.

That's the problem. It makes it more interesting for the poor teacher, though.

Yes please, Cyrilla

OK, here goes!

Simple Time

crotchet: ta
pair of quavers: ti-ti
single quaver: ti
minim: ta-aa
dotted minim: ta-aa-aa
semibreve: ta-aa-aa-aa
four semiquavers: tika-tika
dotted quaver, semiquaver: tim-ka
semiquaver, dotted quaver: ka-tim
quaver, two semiquavers: ti-tika
two semiquavers, quaver: tika-ti
dotted crotchet, quaver: tai (pronounced 'tie')-ti
quaver, dotted crotchet: ti-tai
quaver, crotchet, quaver: syn-co-pa
triplet: triola

Compound Time

dotted crotchet: tai
crotchet, quaver: ta ti
quaver, crotchet: ti ta
three quavers: ti-ti-ti

There are several variations on the above, but these are the ones I use. I haven't put all the compound time possibilities but they should be self-evident (eg ti-tika-ti for quaver, two semiquavers, quaver).

Hope it's helpful!

Thanks for that Cyrilla! I only got as far as quavers.

There'll be no stopping you now!

I remember your year 6 class (?) using syn-co-pa on my last visit to Guildhall.

*sings*
s s l s m d
r r r m s
s s l s m d
d d s, d d d s, d

Not sure if the second line is correct Cyrilla.

Ah - did you mean

m m r d l, l,
d d r m l
m m r d l, l,
l, l, m, l, l, l, m, l,

??? (I think you were remembering a major-ish version!) And yes, it was Y6.



Apologies for going off topic...

Thanks Cyrilla

I use variations on the French time names and all my students find they help - even the ones who are resistant to it to start with come around in the end.

The problem with using different words is you still have to be consistant, my daughter was at her violin lesson last week and the teacher wanted her to use picadilly circus for Semi quaver, quaver groups and she got very confused but Tiki Tiki Ta te worked perfectly when we got home.

Yes! That's it!!
Sorry, I find it hard enough to think in English at that time of the night, never mind solfa!

*realises Cyrilla's y6 class knows more than me*

Hehe. I can imagine it must help

I think this is the version that we used in school music classes.

Don't forget they've had just a FEW more Kodaly lessons than you have, noodle!! (Said goodbye to Iona of three-part sing and play canon fame today.. )

So there's hope for me yet? If I have a few hundred Kodaly lessons, maybe I'll catch up with your year 6 class? Why, where's Iona going? Are the two French boys leaving too?

Well, they leave the String Training Programme at the end of Year 6 . We have one more week to go but Iona couldn't come next week so today was her last day. Yep, the French contingent are leaving too - Jean-Sebastien regaled me with a version of the Marseilleise today. One of the others asked what the words were in English and Augustin just shook his head sadly and said, 'You wouldn't want to know' Ah well, at least I won't be picked up on my Franglais any more!

Just one is continuing onto the Music Course (Lucy).

On the other matter - it took me CONSIDERABLY more than a hundred K lessons to get to where my Y6s are now!

And back to the rhythm names - I introduced a new pattern to my Y4s today and within 5 minutes were able to speak back then write down the rhythms they heard. They really do work - honest! But as Digby said, you have to be consistent..

I was always taught

Amsterdam

Am -Ster- dam : Crotchet, Quaver, Quaver

The French system is used here in Japan.

While the "words" system is easy to remember, English word stresses are extremely sensitive to length, so there's always the possibility that one person thinks that two syllables are equal, while another thinks that one is slightly stressed (=longer).

I agree, all ears. When I say the word 'Amsterdam' it certainly doesn't feel like a crotchet and two quavers!

I used to use it for dotted quaver semiquaver quaver, but wasn't really happy with it. I much prefer rock-a-bye, which works because the nursery rhyme is said with rhythm.

I like the concept of the French words, and would use them if I were teaching from scratch, but unfortunately I almost never am. I have to prioritise what I deal with when I'm inheriting pupils, and using words they already know is a workable compromise.

It's more like 2 quavers and a crotchet.

I seem to remember "ta-te" for quavers, & "ta-fe-te-fi" for semis. Also, whatever happened to Sol-Fa names? They've never heard of them!

The names you mention are the original French time names, Steve. The ones I've listed above are, in the main, the adaptations made by Kodaly and his students.

Ha! Don't get me started on solfa!! One reason Kodaly adopted this wonderful tool is because, when he visited England in the 1920s, he was impressed that the 'man in the street' in England could sight-sing because he had learned solfa at school.

Unfortunately, there is a perception that both rhythm names and solfa are somehow 'old-fashioned' and 'not fun'.

Hmmm - well, it depends how you teach them! They are not only fun to use and to learn but they are immensely effective in teaching rhythm and pitch.

That is totally the problem with using words - they could all be written in loads of different ways. Amsterdam could be a triplet; or a dotted quaver -semiquaver crotchet. Even less ambiguous ones, like Piccadilly Circus, could start with 4 quavers, or 4 semis, 4 crotchets etc. The whole point about using ta etc is that they're totally specific. They only collapse if you're using, eg, a minim beat, 3/2, and it would have the wrong feel to keep saying ta-aa all the time. A minim then becomes one - which is always hard to explain to those who have been ingrained with a minim being 2 beats. Same problem when teaching 3/8, and suddenly a solitary quaver is 'one' !

That, in my opinion, is the root cause of rhythm problems: that children are taught that a crotchet is 'one', a minim is 'two' etc. It's one of the very first things they learn, and so becomes very ingrained. By the time they reach 6/8, which they often do before 3/2 or 3/8, they have tremendous difficulty in not counting 'one' for the crotchets.

Yes, very true. And surely another reason for always relating the rhythm to the pulse!

As HelenVJ says, the rhythm names are so specific and not ambiguous in any way. Plus it does help with this 'crotchet is one, minim is two' problem. Children can be taught to read in augmented/diminished rhythm so that, for example, in 2/2 minim, crotchet, crotchet,/crotchet, crotchet, minim,/crotchet, minim, crotchet,/semibreve would be read as 'ta, ti-ti/ti-ti ta/syn-co-pa/ta-aa.

I find myself using the phrase 'for now' a lot and this starts with the crotchet counts 1.

I have been away and so have only just seen this thread. Are these names really French? (I thought rosfrog might have commented but he doesn't appear to have done so).

I remember learning them in the UK, my daughter has not come across them in France and nor have I ever heard my oboe teacher use them. Also, the spelling suggests they are not French as French words do not have a "k" in them unless they have been "borrowed" recently from another language.

I also remember learning that the word "crotchet" came from the French term but this is not true. I expect the word probably does have a latin origin but the French term "croche" which looks like "crotchet" actually means a "quaver" (and a crotchet is called a "noire").

Yes, the original names were developed in France by Gallin and Cheve.

You're right that the ones with 'k' in are not French. I did say that they were adaptations made by Kodaly and his followers. There are many, many different variations.

The 'k' ones were developed fairly recently in America. I have adopted those as I personally prefer 'tikatika' for four semiquavers to the 'tiritiri' which was the Kodaly adaptation of the original French 'tafetafe'.

Yes "crotchet" came from the Latin "crotcheta" meaning a "hook", as in a quaver. If this doesn't make sense, go to this thread: Why is a minim called a minim? for a potted history of minims, crotchets, quavers

I like Humpty Dumpty for crotchet/quaver pairs plus Hickory Dickory for 6 quavers and Tick Tock for dotted crotchets so you get things like "Hickory Dumpty, Hickory Dock"......(plus the drinks for simple time combinations).

Great ideas - and these do work. But beware - they stick !

A few months ago I was teaching one of my pupils the Bach grade two Musette in D, using some of the words patterns in Piano time (Big green caterpillar ready for lunch etc).

I now can't hear it without thinking "bi-ig caterpillar, bi-ig caterpillar, ready for big green big green big green. Yikes.

Yup I sometimes find myself going "tea coffee coffee lemonade......"

Has anyone ever heard Ebenzer Prout's words to Bach fugue themes, which make it easier to follow the way the fugue is being worked out?

eg, Well Tempiered Clavier Book 2, C minor fugue: John Sebastian Bach fell upon his back, and he then got up again with an "ow".

Once heard, never forgotten.

Old Ebenezer Prout, you are a funny man,
What on earth inspired your silly little plan,
You make Bach fugues as nasty as you can.


(fugue subject of great G minor)

Are you sure?? I can't get the words to fit that fugue.........

aha - just googled it! http://www2.rhbnc.ac.uk/~uhwm006/prout.html

What do you use for a syncopated rhythm in 2/4: quaver crotchet quaver?
I have been using "real" words in silly combinations with my daughter recently and she loves it. She is demanding something for the above rhythm and I can't find anything convincing.

(French doesn't lend itself to this as it doesn't have the same variable stress pattern so we have been doing it in English and I can't ask her teacher).

I seem to remember Cyrilla listed one of the syncopated rhythms as -

syn- co - pa in the Kodaly system -

and i think that may have been quaver-crotchet-quaver - don't know if that would help ?

(are you there Cyrilla ? please correct me if I'm wrong!)

Excellent! Thanks for that.

This is all a bit like the way American lyricists who couldn't read or write music used to note down the rhythm of songs that were played to them by composers. They wrote nonsense verses called dummies, as in the following that Ira Gershwin wrote for "I Got Rhythm": "Roly-poly, eating solely, ravioli, better watch your diet or bust".

The lyrics to the chorus of "Tea for Two" were, I understand, originally a dummy that was considered good enough to use as it was.

I'm here, Maggie! *waves*

Yes, I use 'syn-co-pa' for all those patterns whether the rhythm is augmented or diminished (ie quaver/crotchet/quaver, minim/crotchet/minim etc.)

I have to say I think rhythm names are great and I personally don't like the 'tea, coffee' idea at all...but, as with everything, if it works for you...

I just don't know how anyone can truly read rhythm accurately and independently without rhythm names of some description. I was taught to 'count' as a child and it foxed me completely and meant nothing to me. Rhythm names were a revelation - HOORAY!!!

Do you vary where you put the stress depending on which of the two variants (quaver/crotchet/quaver or minim/crotchet/minim) you want?

If the syncopa rhythm is joined with others I have various phrases eg Yellow banana for syncopa plus 2 crotchets, Yellow and Mellow for syncopa followed by quaver dotted crotchet (or Yellow and Mellow and ....if it's repeated syncopas...) and various other sayings for syncopated rhythms.