see title. I'm just curious to know what grade mozarts turkish rondo is equal too.

It's not an easy piece to play well. I have been told that it is about grade 7-8 standard. I wouldn't say any lower than that.

Mozart is too easy for beginners but too hard for experts...I messed around with this shortly after passing grade six, and still can't do it justice now

ok thanks, i thought as much

My favourite arrangment of this piece is as a piano duet with the secondo part playing a samba. You won't believe how good it is! If you have scorch you can listen and watch it at:

http://www.sibeliusmusic.com/cgi-bin/show_...l?scoreid=18137

It's excellent!

That is just too cool, I love it Is that first part a little simplified? It doesn't look as horrific as I had expected. Wondering if this could be a long term project to attempt with my piano teacher... it would be fun even though it would probably take me an age to play it even at a much lower speed.

With apologies for dragging us even more off topic, but for another (excuse the pun) offbeat version, go here and click on the sample for a clip of a flute-and-piano-reggae version which makes me giggle every single time, it's just thoroughly silly and fantastic

I wouldnt have said any harder than Grade 7. The passge work is really not too difficult with a bit for practice.

I've just done my grade 6, and I cam play it pretty well, but not perfect, so somewhere between grades 6 and 7 is my guese

g7~8?? you sure??
it had been in the grade5 abrsm 1967~1968 exam... surely it should be easier than g7,8??

I agree with Boo, definitely not an easy piece to play well!



Thanks JohnS, that is now my favourite arrangement too! I shall try it out with my friend!

omg really? but its like 5 pages, i've never known a grade 5 piece to be that long

Technically yes, but never underestimate Mozart.

Loved the samba version. Would love to play that with someone.

now days, no.



Oh is that a version for drums?? I'll love to try it...

I had to play the whole Sonata (rondo alla turca is the last piece) for my Associated Board grade 8 year's ago, good luck with it

True, the last variation in this sonata is way up to G8 standard (to me i believe it is AT LEAST G8)....but the enitre sonata for G8?? That sounds a bit harsh.

You've got me thinking now I know I definitely played the whole Sonata, my teacher made me play the first 3 movements for my Purcell school audition (I remember thinking these are never impressive enough to get me in, and they weren't!!), this was at the same time as my grade 8, maybe I played 3/4 variations.

I've played the whole thing as well - some of the variations are technically much easier than others. It would be a long exam if you played the whole thing!

The Grade 8 piano syllabus always used to contain a choice of classical sonatas, and yes, candidates had to play the whole sonata.

The AB went through the process of standardising exams across different instruments (I think in the early 90s), so the requirements for Grade 8 are now much more similar whether you are playing piano, flute, violin or trumpet. High grade singing exams are the only exception, as they have four songs rather than three.

That samba alla turka is really good
(although i usually hate remixing classical music)

Oh, how long about did you take the exam?? And yes, truely in the old days the AB require candidates to do the entire sonata in G8...(which is really harsh I think...), but surely nowdays the requirement's just shorten to just one movement, of which is usually the first or the last movement.

Was it really harsh, or has Grade 8 piano been dumbed down? I think its a pity that you don't play a whole sonata anymore.

Why?? But you get to do the whole sonata in Dip exams anyway. I think it better to cut down the load and make the quality of the movement better.

You could say why not. The Mozart Sonatas selected for Grade 8 are not too long, and its good at that level to experience a sonata in its entirity to get it into musical context. I played a whole concerto for my Grade 7 Oboe.

I think I'm going to ask the mods to ban this phrase 'dumbed down'. I'm getting rather fed up with it being trotted out every time a syllabus change is mentioned.

As I said before, I think the Board has been aiming for consistency across Grade exams for different instruments, so that Grade 8 piano is neither harder nor easier than Grade 8 flute. This has resulted in some changes to syllabuses, so that requirements are adjusted one way or another. The flute syllabus has generally become slightly harder than it was when I took Grade 8 in the 70s: the Lennox Berkeley Sonatina first movement is currently on the Grade 7 syllabus, whereas I played it for Grade 8 (and also for DipABRSM).

Playing entire sonatas is now confined to the diploma syllabus, where it sits more comfortably, I feel.

I had a look at the scales list the other day, and could swear there are fewer scales on there now than I had to do in 2000. Even then, there were fewer scales than there used to be.

I think the emphasis of grade 8 has changed - it used to be more of a mini-recital, with a baroque list A, whole sonata list B, and romantic list C. In my opinion, the classical period contains more 'playing styles' than the baroque or romantic periods. The presence of a whole sonata on list B allowed a wide gamut of classical-period piano technique to be displayed: there could be no shying away from certain aspects by only playing the movement that suited one's abilities.

So yes, perhaps the modern grade 8 is dumbed down: one doesn't have to think about constrasting the movements presented in a sonata; and one only has to be able to play in a classical style that suits one of the movements of a sonata, not to have the technique to do justice to all of them.

Quite right. When I did grade 8 piano back in the heady days of 1986 I chose to play the Mozart B flat (the one which opens with the unison figure on the tonic triad) ... I note it now appears on the Dip syllabus, and yes I appreciate the standard of performance required for Dip _should_ be higher....

We had to play all scales in every key as well.

Aural tests were harder too. You were placed in one room, the examiner was in another with the piano and the soft pedal firmly depressed. Both doors were shut. He played a melody very lightly and you had to write it down without actually being able to hear it. It was called "aural extra-sensory perception" if I remember rightly. I did quite well at that bit

You're forgetting the bit where the examiner would play an entire modern piano piece with infinite changes of time signature and then ask you to clap back the rhythm.

No......................!!

Um, yes. Otherwise why not just introduce a system where three years after your Grade 8 you return your certificate with a £10 note and get a shiny new Diploma certificate by return of post.

I did my Grade 8 in 1990, and it had been dumbed UP by that point - I had to clap back the rhythm before the examiner had played the test piece.

That's really not fair, all you Dip or Lrsm or Frsm holders wants to higher the standards, think about those who want to get them but not yet, or can get them...

No, my point (badly made) was I played the whole of the Mozart B flat for my grade 8. It now appears on the Dip syllabus. The standard of performance/interpretation should be higher at Dip than grade 8 even though the piece is the same.

That's all I was saying.

Clearly standards for the Dips are already very high and rightly so, I have no argument that says they should be raised higher. Indeed, it's my belief I should be given HonFRSM to save me the trouble of writing the written submission for the real diploma, but I doubt that will happen

Yes...the same thing will happens nowdays, i.e. the Wadstein sonata by beethoven exists in both the Lrsm and Frsm list...it appears to be harder than Lrsm but easier than Frsm, however I believe Lrsm candidates get can an average mark by not playing it absolutely precise, however Frsm candidates do have to.

Sad fact of life I'm afraid pianist_1210. If you want to reach a certain standard, you have to work at it, be it in music, knitting or anything else. I understand your disappointment at having failed your diploma - better luck next time.

Whilst I can play works from the FRSM list, I don't know whether or not I can play them at the appropriate standard (and at £500-odd for the exam fee, I'd make sure I had a pretty good idea first!). Whatever grade a piece is set at, there's the old chestnut of performance standard.

But to return to the original question, how about a searchable database of all repertoire lists ever? It should help people who want to know what grade a particular piece is.

Edit: The clarinet repertoire lists for all three diplomas includes the Poulenc and Brahms sonatas, and the Finzi, Mozart and second Weber concerti, and the Weber Grand Duo Concertant. Guess which diploma would require the highest standard of performance or interpretation, even though they all appear on earlier syllabi (or even in the higher Grade exams).

One of the many differences between an Oxbridge MA and a DipABRSM .


Not any more - it's FRSM only since the updated syllabus. As is Appasionata. I think, during the QCA review, they realised it was easier to assign pieces to only one of the diplomata where possible.

A point I pondered over lunch: would DipABRSM pass rates be higher if candidates have had the experience of preparing an entire sonata for grade 8?

I don't hold any diplomas. By rights I should have a DipABRSM, but was busy having children when they changed the syllabus and I was unable to upgrade my Advanced Certificate (that I passed with distinction) to A DipABRSM.

I still notice a change in the criteria. The Aural is now much easier. I took two Grade 8s in the 1980's and singing back the lower part of some impossible two-part was near-on impossible. That has been dropped.

I like music to be put into context. I would happily play all of the Mozart Sonata I'm planning to play the first movement of for my Grade 8, the slow movement is lovely. It would also balance the recital programme better.

I notice little change in the requirment fo Oboe, and although singing has changed, I rate it no harder. Different instruments require different criteria. I just think its a pity that the requirement to play a whole sonata is now reserved for diplomas.

Exactly...otherwise the exams can be a bit like ClassicFM. Now that is dumbed down

Classic Fm... the station I put on in the car where I need to concentrate on the road, and at breakfast time before my brain wakes up.

Well as I said on the 'New Syllabus' Thread, the first movement of Mozart K332, is now on Grade8, yet I played it for Grade 4 (yes FOUR), London College exams in about 1959/1960 ish! I dont think its any harder than Grade 5 standard, and the Mozart C Major K279 on Grade 8 is not much harder.

For ALCM four years later I played the whole of Beethoven Op 10 No 2, but the Mozart option at that time was the C Major K309.

I dont think any of the Mozart first movements are harder than grade 8, none are really Dip standard.

To get back to the original thread 'Rondo alla Turca' is maybe 6 at the most, indeed the whole sonata is not really difficult.

That depends on the size of your hands. I cant play it as it kills my wrists due to all the octaves, yet I'm planning Grade 8 in December. I still think it is a pity that, unlike when I took all my other Grade 8s I don't have the oppourtunity to play the whole of K330 rather than just the first movement!

Yes, I remember the two-parts being quite close together and rather difficult to pick out easily. If you could pick it out easily, remembering the whole passage that went on forever was the next stumbling block! The second test was interval recognition and as expected, my examiner played the more difficult intervals at both extremes of the keyboard but I was prepared for that - thanks to my teacher's gruelling aural training sessions! There was also a test where you had to name the note values of an extract from the passage, i.e. two crotchets followed by a dotted quaver and semiquaver etc.

So its not just me that remembers them with dread

So singing the lower of THREE parts, which is required on the aural syllabus now, is easier than singing the lower of TWO parts (which I think is now on the Grade 7 aural syllabus) used to be?

Singing the lowest of any number of parts is straightforward enough. It gets harder if they play 8 part texture and you have to sing the numbered part chosen by the examiner e.g. 5th highest. This happened to me in my grade 1 exam in 1978 and I never recovered from the experience

Wow. What a wuss.

Back in my prep test in 1955, when exams were proper exams, I was expected to sing any part named by the examiner whilst playing another with my right hand and yet another with my left hand.

Get a grip.

Another reason for reducing the List B requirement for Grade 8 piano: to reduce the length of the exam. Nowadays all Grade 8 exams are scheduled in 30-minute slots. It is quite hard to keep the exam to 30 minutes if one of the three pieces is a complete sonata, which can easily take up 15-20 minutes. Since the number of candidates is on the rise, for logistics reason, it makes good sense for the Board to cut the length of the exams. Note also that candidates going for Grades 6 and 7 piano had to prepare four pieces, not three. One should perhaps consider the financial implications as well.




Mozart's piano music may not be so challenging technically. But, I know quite a few pianists who dread playing Mozart. They can handle the music of Beethoven, Chopin, Rachmaninoff, Liszt, Bartok... with no problem; however, they just can't get the right touch when playing Mozart. I have even heard a few musicians say that Mozart is the hardest composer!

As for the first movement of K. 332, I'd say it is about Grade 6 or 7 standard. Not sure how many Grade 4 students can actually handle it.

In my opinion, singing back the lowest of three parts is not a lot harder than singing back the lower of two parts. However, I have to say that the current aural requirements are much easier for people with weak short-term memory. Personally, I think it is a shame that candidates are no longer tested on intervals and chord qualities; however, I like the fact that students nowadays have to learn to sight sing and listen to a piece critically.

I strongly agree. I can cope with Chopin and Debussy no problem. Even Beethoven and Bach, but Mozart.... I actually don't like playing his music! Only ever touched 2 of his works...never again!

I find singing the lowest of three parts is easier than singing the lower of two parts because the part you are required to sing is further away (interval wise) from the top part which is what you would naturally pick out when you hear any piece of music. Therefore, you are less likely to be influenced by the top part when you are listening and also when you are actually singing the lowest part. This is what I have also found when teaching other people and singing in choirs.

Obviously, that does not apply if the two-part passage involves a line in the treble and one in the bass!

Saying that, picking out the inner part of any multi-part passage is definitely more difficult than picking out the lower part of any passage.