I've a lot to say tonight! lol

I'm just curious as to what others think to this.

I have always taught theory alongside practical grades. For example; Grade 1 singing and grade 1 practical. As some of you may well know, just the look of a theory book can bring out horrid expressions. Some hate it, others love it! I think it makes sense for students to do their theory as they go along so they don't reach grade 5 practical and say "oh dear, i need grade 5 theory to proceed, but i know nothing!"

What do others think? Would you just teach practical and then worry about grade 5 theory when the time comes?
I know it depends on the student. Adults can make decisions for themselves but when you teach children, theory can be a daunting prospect. Can people usually jump in at grade 5 theory?

A lot of the theory will come along with teaching the instruments of course, but I like to teach theory and practical side by side, like you sparkle1980 - it does make grade 5 theory rather less of a shock when my pupils get there. You can always ask the odd 'theory' question in practical tuition too -indeed I'd recommend this as being a good idea.

I agree that a lot of theory gets covered through practical teachings but i make it a point to enocourage my students to study theory grades along with practical. Most of them really enjoy theory as i use exciting games/methods with them which brightens it up a bit and as some of you on here know i have a rather large collection of homemade worksheets to hand out to them which they prefer over the bog standard ways at times.

Its quite shocking how many people out there are not encouraged by their teachers to do theory and then find themselves in a pickle when they need a particular standard for either exams/college/uni etc. It seems that a lot of people think theory doenst matter.

As far as im concerned i have always looked at it as my highway code of music. I certainly wouldnt have gotten in my car and drove around before i looked at the HC so why should music be any different!

You and me both Deborah!

Like your Highway Code analogy as well.

Why thank you! :-)

All of my private pupils work through the theory requirements up to the point when they have taken Grade 5 in the subject. After that I give them the option of continuing, or not, as they choose. Most choose not to take it any further, and that suits me, because at the highest grades going over theory together can very easily gobble up a significant proportion of the lesson. At that level I reckon that it's best dealt with in a separate lesson.

With my group-taught pupils at school, I only teach theory incidental to what we are doing at the time, ie. not 'formally'. I did try having some proper theory classes a couple of years ago, but after the initial enthusiasm it became a nightmare to administer, so I don't do that any more!

As I've mentioned before, I don't teach many students from scratch. Most of them have had school lessons and taken a few practical exams before they come to me, and none so far have done any written theory. I start them working on theory questions at an appropriate level for their experience.

I find that generally someone who has taken Grade 4 flute can start theory at Grade 3, with a few catch up exercises and often a crash course in bass clef for the non-pianists. I've had one or two less confident students begin at Grade 1, and a couple of more confident students begin at Grade 4.

They don't take exams other than Grade 5 unless they want to, but they work through a set of past papers for each Grade after they've finished the workbook. I suggest that they might like to take a lower Grade exam as a mock, to get them used to the exam environment, and some decide to do this.

I think theory is important, alongside practical. I normally start grade 1 theory around the same time as the practical, if not, shortly after. Although I do have some who really detest it, so it is more a case of 'teaching' them by experiencing theory concepts in the actual music, until they want to do the books, or grade in theory. I must admit I do have some addicts of theory though, must be my influence! It's great to see so much enthuiasm for the understanding of music!

With my group-taught pupils at school, I only teach theory incidental to what we are doing at the time, ie. not 'formally'.
Most of my pupils come to me initially because they want to play, not because they want to do written work. In the early stages I tend to do what Jo does with her groups - bring in theory "orally" as we go along, and appropriate to what we are playing and learning. It varies though - some pupils show an interest in written work and are keen to do the theory grades; some need a little extra help with understanding and I might include more theory for this reason. Others find it too much like school homework, and are easily put off by it. With those who are doing grades, the practicals usually go a bit ahead of the theory, but not by too much. I don't find it particularly useful to keep exactly abreast with the theory - practical (piano) grades - for a start, the keys / scales don't tie in. (Maybe in some instruments they correspond more logically).

I do look at each student individually and try to see what is needed. Some don't want to to grades at all - in which case the "grade 5 problem" isn't going to arise, and I probably wouldn't insist on formal written theory for these - unless they relish doing it. It's true that their understanding probably won't be as thorough as it might be, that's something we have to work with.

The only time I've had formal theory teaching was in my piano lessons with the psychopathic teacher when I was a kid.

Theory was the bit I could do OK and didn't generally get yelled at or hit for (with the one memorable exception of a homework where I made a mistake and she ripped up the whole of my work and threw it in the bin in a rage) so I progressed through it at high speed while never achieving any actual piano playing.

So I ended up with Grade 5 theory pretty early on, even though I didn't achieve an instrumental Grade 5 until my mid-thirties.

In the main, I teach theory all the way alongside the practical; however, I don't label it as 'theory' - it's just part of the lesson like aural and sight-reading/singing. It means by the time they get to Grade 5, they realise that actually they know the majority of the work needed, as they've learnt it indirectly alongside their instrument/voice.

David

I'm forever talking theory. I like the Eric Taylor workbooks. And I've just looked through the Alan Haughton one in the Play Piano series (pub Mayhew) and I have two pupils in mind that would benefit from working through it.

The number of times I have taken a tea-plate out onto an A3 sheet of Manuscript paper and worked through the Circle of Fifths together with a pupil is ridiculous. But working it that way, it does tend to stick!

What a good idea! My circles always look like tomatoes!

Only teaching singing, I think it's more important to combine it with theory. It's too easy to "learn" songs by ear. We singers also don't have that immediate relationship of the eye and ear between the written note and the sounding one. We don't have to learn scales - I can sing any one you like with a different starting note!
It is so easy to let time drift by and not do theory - how do you sight read singing without it?
I am appalled at the number of students I get from other teachers after YEARS of lessons who can't read music - or can a bit, but haven't a clue about keys.
My students start theory from lesson number two.

Good point. I get pupils coming to me specifically to learn to sight-sing. In many cases they've been singing for years, although not all have actually had singing lessons.

I have a whiteboard in my music room where i teach from home which permanantly has a circle drawn on (drawn also with the aid of a plate!) and i let them use the coloured pens to fill it out as a circle of fifths.

They love being able to draw on the board so it makes it fun for them and they all learn it very quickly :-)

With regard to the circle of fifths ... from grade 2 onwards, I make it essential for the student to learn it - we put it inside the theory workbook (the front cover) so when they need to work out a key signature, without piano, they can look at that, so they get the idea of how useful it is in the exam etc. I have some rhymes to make it easier to write down. It is very helpful to make it fun for the students, otherwise it can become a bit daunting for the little ones. Some of my students really enjoy this part, and I have been told many a time, that the student has sat around drawing about 50 circle of fifths, using the rhymes, seeing how quickly they can do it! Amazing!



That's a very good idea.. never thought of that. It makes it fun doesn't it. It's amazing how useful the circle of fifths can be really.

I use solfredge to teach sight-singing as it teaches people about the degree of the scale they are learning, and helps develop good aural skills too. Linking Solfredge to theory is relatively easy, as when you teach the alternative names for degrees on a scale, your pupil already has a "handle" on which to link things.

Yes, that is a good idea too. Any hints of encouragin pupils to understand that it is ok to sing in the aural section? I have a few that think it's hilarious and won't do it properly! I've tried saying, let's do it together etc, but sometimes they still won't try their best.

I teach theory and aural along with practical work although it's difficult to fit everything in to a 30 minute lesson. I teach my students to use solfege when they get to grade 4 practical. It is invaluable for sight-singing especially when they are working for grade 6 practical and above.

Sounds a good idea - what rhymes do you use?

We've had these discussions a bit before and I'd just throw in my "gripe" that virtually all the theory books marketed tend to be aimed at people who have keyboard facility. Yes, of course, to pass the dreaded Grade V you have to be able to read bass clef (and later on for aural and theory understand basic harmony) but when you're teaching a single-line reading, beginner oboist who is struggling to get the instrument to make any sound at all, confronting them with the need to read another clef as well as treble can be a problem.

For this reason I tend to use my own stuff for oboists but the published books for pianists. Maybe no logic in that but it's the way I prefer. Also, the ABRSM theory books tie in quite closely to the piano scales for a while and wind players do not necessarily learn those scales first.

I think that, rather as with playing scales, pianists do have a head start with theory because they have an instrument which readily makes a sound AND they learn both clefs automatically. Poor old oboists (and other wind players too) they can still be taking 30 minutes to assemble the instrument, get the reed working and produce a decent sound to play three notes after several lessons. At such times the theory has to wait until we've got enough notes under the belt to play one scale (that can be several weeks into lessons) and enough time in the lesson to discover the mysteries of bass clef etc.

I am considering producing my own set of "Theory for wind players" books. If I ever do - not enough hours in the day for now - I'll let you all know!

Happy theory all.

Oboist

I think you are right about keyboard players having a bit of a head start with theory, Oboist. I've always thought it must make quite a difference.

However, I don't find the keys tie in particularly well beyond grade one (maybe they tie in even less well with some instruments!) One of the reasons I generally avoid doing practical and theory grades alongside is the difference in keys required. Grade 2 is particularly tricky, I feel, in this respect. If I have a pupil struggling to learn the (piano) scales for grade 2 - which currently include B minor - I may not find it a great idea to have her learning to write B flat major at the same time.

Maybe others find it works better the other way round (Katyjay, your experience with early piano lessons would indicate this was the case with you), but in general I would rather teach scales practically before teaching how to write them.

OK. I think I must be missing out a bit here. I've never been taught the circle of fifths by any of my piano teachers (I've had 4 over the years), and the only time anyone referred to it was when a friend said that her daughter, who's a bright girl, was rather confused by it when her piano teacher tried to teach it to her.

I've always taught keys by going up the keyboard, pointing out clues on the way, and learning all the sharps or flats in a line in my little exercise book. All of my pupils have passed their theory exams so far!

Can anyone explain, or point me in the direction of one of these circles please?

I think that with the circle of fifths, as with any mnemonic or memory aid, it's better to have learnt the information FIRST then you know what it's meant to remind you of.
I wouldn't generally teach note names with Every Good Boy etc. nor would I introduce the circle of fifths until most key signatures are already known so that it's easier to see the pattern.

I wasn't aware of the circle of fifths until many years after I knew all my key signatures but it's can be a useful memory aid and it's quite interesting to see the pattern. I think that learning things like that BEFORE you have the understanding adds to the amount of learning rather than reducing it.

It is shown in the pink AB Guide to Music theory book.
It's like a clock face witm C major/Aminor at 12 o' clock and goes round the key signature in a clockwise direction with G major/Eminor at 1 o' clock and so on.
At 6 o' clock the change from sharp to flat is made with the enharmnic equivalents of F# Major/Gb minor.

Well, with the use of the internet, and one of my student's creativity, this is what I use:

For clockwise Majors -
Children, Go, Dancing, After, Eating, Battered, Fish (and) Chips

For anti-clockwise Majors -
Children, Find, Bears, Exciting, And, Deer, Great, Chums


For clockwise Minors -
All, Elephants, Bounce, For, Cheetahs, Gorrillas (and) Deer


For anti-clockwise Minors -
Afterwards, Deer, Gorillas (and) Cheetahs, Find, Bouncing, Elephants


They find this fun and it really does come in useful for their exams. We do the majors in red, minors in blue, sharps/flats in green and order of sharps and flats in black.