I've recently got into a Beethoven phase and I can't stop listening to his works. I was talking about this to my teacher the other day and he thought that it would be a good idea for me to try a sonata. I haven't played a Beethoven sonata (apart from some of the Moonlight) before although I have played some of his other pieces. He told me to get 'a meaty, real sonata'. I presume he means a typical Beethoven sonata with the signiture rage and large chords etc. I don't know any 'meaty, real sonatas' so I was wondering if you could help me. I'm around a grade 7/8 level but don't mind pushing a bit. Long ones are fine also, need something to keep me occupied over the holidays.

Thanks.

Hooray! Long may your Beethoven phase continue!! Try the Pathetique sonata which is similar in range to the Moonlight. There is a set of the sonatas played in full by Gould (can't remember first name) which comes highly recommended. You could listen to this to get a "feel" for the sonatas before trying them. This is the advice given to me by my tutor and has proved very helpful. Good luck!!

I agree - go for the Pathétique (Sonata No. 8 in C minor), it's a fantastic work

I also agree with attempting the Pathetique sonata. I have just finished learning it, I love it, especially the cantabile melodies of the 2nd movement and the humour of the third movement. The first movement though is my favourite. Other's you could try are the C minor op.10 no.1 thats also really nice, the E minor op.90 is fun aswell. Beethoven is brilliant though, Daniel Barenboim has recorded all of the sonata's complete in a box set and his interpretation is really good.

I was thinking of playing that but I think it's overplayed. Maybe it'll give me a nice introduction to his sonatas though.

Just been looking around and I think I might buy the Pathétique and get this which has all the ones from his middle period.

I have all three of these volumes and they provide excellent notes of how Beethoven inended them to be played. Also offer advice on fingering, dynamics etc.

My piano teacher told me that when Christmas comes this year, I should ask for the Henle/Urtext Volume 1 of Beethoven's sonatas, and then for my bithday in May Volume 2! They are like doorsteps - I don't have them but I saw them in a music shop. I think they come in at about £30 each, but if you can afford to fork out for one, at least there'll be many to choose from!

I agree with reccomending the Pathetique...
I've also been working on Beethovens sonata in Eb Op. 7 .. the 3d movement is in grade 7 syllabus anyway...

I think the first movement of the Pathetique is genuinely tricky to play at a good tempo, and so I'd personally suggest starting with Op.10 No.1 instead - still a decent piece and solid Grade 8 territory. Otherwise, Op.10 No.2 and Op.90 are also good starting points. And no-one has yet mentioned one of my favourites - the Op.28 'Pastoral' sonata in D major. But good luck with whatever you decide to do - these 32 pieces represent a sizeable chunk of the best piano music ever written, and it's wonderful to discover them for the first time.

I have just got out 1/2 of the piano sonatas from my local library, the second lot (later lot!!) & I love them!

I've only really done mozart sonatas and they're nearly all in major keys, so its great to have some minor stuff to get my teeth into!!
I took grade 8 piano last week, and I;ve looked at the tempest one (not sure of op.) & the appasionata (op 57?) which is great. I've only looked at the easy bits, but I wanna learn the whole thing soon!

I would reccomend going to the local library - I think these sonatas are quite a vital part of the piano repertoire, so I would imagine they would have some!!

Jonathan

Thanks for all the replies. I'm thinking of trying the tempest, don't think I've got the stamina though.

I've had a go at the first movement of Op. 90 since it's in the grade 8 purple book. First two pages seem OK but the semiquavers in the left hand seem tricky. I'll have a proper look later.

I might try out the local library, I don't usually go there for music (in fact, I never ).

Suggestions still welcome.

You may know this, but I always find it incredible.

At ten years of age, Saint-Saëns gave his debut public recital, playing a Mozart Piano Concerto and some other bits and bobs. As an encore, Saint-Saëns offered to play any of Beethoven's piano sonatas from memory.

Is that incredible? I can play about 5 of the sonatas, but none from memory!

If you have small hands I wouldn't suggest the Pathetique. The octave tremolos are very difficult when you have a small hand as they continue for some time. I did this piece for my DipABRSM and found it extremely difficult!

I know you didn't say you have a small hand, just something to consider when choosing

Tempest will be rather tricky: it's on the LRSM syllabus, I guess it depends if you're looking for something to make a real polished performance of (in which case avoid Tempest for a while yet) or just something to have a bash at for fun not minding if some bits aren't quite as good as you'd like. If you want something you can stand up and perform proudly Tempest is probably not the right thing for you at the moment; if you like it and just want to have a bash then there is, of course, nothing stopping you from doing that.

Op. 49, No. 2 (No. 20) is generally regarded as the easiest sonata, in two movements each of which isn't much harder than grade 5 (my estimate) although learning the whole thing will make it a bit harder. If you want to do a whole sonata I think the only other one with all three movements sub grade 8 is Op. 79 (No. 25, Alla Tedesca) of which the first movement has been on grade 8 and the third on grade 7 (the second is easier than the outer ones). There's quite a bit of three against four in the last movement so you'll need to be good at (or learn to be good at!) that. Although all the movements are sub-grade 8 it's harder than playing a grade 8 piece to play the whole sonata because of the sheer length (it's like playing two for a start!) and keeping the whole thing coherent.

The Pathetique would be rather difficult at grade 7/8 standard, in particular the first movement with the sustained tremolo requires a lot of stamina. It's quite a popular work too so if you play it you've got to play it well. I think you're right to steer clear of that one, especially as you're familiar with more of the sonatas: take advantage of the fact that you're familiar with, and like, more than just the standard few that most people explore and be more adventurous, whilst taking in all the great music that so many people sadly miss. I used to really like the two most famous sonatas; now I still do like them but they're nowhere near the top of my favourite Beethoven Sonatas list now that I know them all. Unless you really want to learn a whole sonata, perhaps a few 'odd' movements would allow you to explore a bit more material at the appropriate level: learning a whole sonata would be a great experience it depends if you feel that you can manage the one you want to do.

As for buying a volume of the Beethoven Sonatas if you're only getting one I'd advise that you get the first volume: there's a general trend in increasing difficulty as the numbers go up (although there are certainly some that don't fit the trend). The sonatas really start at dipABRSM level with one or two exceptions so none of them are easy, the first volume would however be a good place to start with some single movements as there are quite a few manageable ones.

My personal favourite (it's hard to pick one but I think I'd go for this one) is Op. 28 (No. 15) it's not on any of the dip syllabuses, my guess is that it's about dipABRSM difficult but is a little too long to fit in a dipABRSM programme with other things, hence it's absence. I could, of course, be completely wrong .

I've seen a list of the relative difficulty of Beethoven Sonatas (which is, of course, subjective) it's been linked to from here but I can't find it with a quick search. I think it was originally from Pianostreet. If I come across it I'll let you know, in the meantime someone else might have the link. I have a feeling there was another 'easier' one on there, possibly No. 10 or 19 (not sure), but I can't remember off the top of my head.

P.S. There's nothing wrong with being obsessed with Beethoven sonatas .

I like Op.22 in Bb, not infeasibly difficult.

Maybe the people were so uneducated that he just knew 3 and he played one of them no matter what they said.

I like that idea!

What a great idea! I shoud do that next time!

Thanks AP for your reply, it was really helpful. I quite like the Pastoral as well. Sorry, I only know the named ones and parts of the others. I'm not looking to perform any of these, I don't usually perform (I just play for fun). All I'm looking for is the satisfaction of playing a Beethoven sonata albeit very badly.

If by soon you mean a good 5 years and more...go for it. Damn those two are hard!

My personal reccomendations are

No.1 in F minor
No.4 in E flat
No.5 in C minor
No.12 in A flat (2nd/3rd movements at least)
No.19 in G minor
No.20/25 in G
(If you really want a dare.... No.21 in C or No.32 in C minor )

Personally I DON'T reccomend the Moonlight, Pathetique, Appassionata, Tempest or No.16

They're waaaaaaaaay over played (except No.16, that's just ridiculously hard and regarded as the most difficult of the 32 sonatas)

That's right isn't it though: learn the Moonlight and the Pathetique and no one has heard of any of the others to even ask for them anyway ?

Some good suggestions there IL .



I would however disagree with this point: I would have thought that 29 (Hammerklavier) is generally regarded as the hardest or another of the later ones. No. 16 is on the LRSM syllabus, by no means easy but I wouldn't have thought the hardest.

In many cases, just learn the famous movement

With apologies for slight off topic ness - friend of mind wants to learn the piano. He said, and I quote, "I'll start off with something simple like the Moonlight Sonata...."

Oh yes of course the Hammerklavier, another one to avoid

According to my copy of the Beethoven Sonatas (Schirmer 2 books) It states No.16 as being the hardest

No 16 - Op 31 No 1 in G major - the hardest? I agree that Hammerklavier is way more difficult than that...

I know where this person is oming from - the first (* famous) bit of monnlight sonata does sound easy, but little do non-pianists know its in a horrible key, & its gets alot harder. Just play your friend the start of the 3rd movement!!

It's a shame not many people know about the 3rd movement. It's one of my favourites!

Just to reiterate, my suggestion of No.16 being the hardest was quoted from a Schirmer copy of the sonatas. The Hammerklavier and No.31/32 are presumably much harder. But frankly I wouldn't like to say what is THE hardest.

As for the key of C# minor...it's not really THAT awful. Just have to remember B#s!

There aren't any B#s in C# Minor.

Not even in the rising melodic minor?

Yes there are in that and in the harmonic minor but it isn't part of the key signature.

I like the moonlite sonata(1s movement)

Is that the abridged version?

I think it's the non abridged version. I'll play it when I'm g8 (or more)

I think JohnS is referring to the 'lite' in 'Moonlite'!

Yep, and they don't take much remembering because they're always written on the score when needed.

Except when there's one written at the beginning of a very long bar, and the next one comes at the end (although this seems to happen rather more in Bach than in Beethoven ).

One of my students refers to the Moonlight as "scary" He means the way it sounds, not scary to play. Never thought of it as that. Anyone else heard it described like this?

Spot on. Hence the

Moonlight .......Simple.......*faints at looking at the score of the 3rd mvt*

Yes, exactly... and even the "simple" stuff can be difficult to pull off.

Chances of me being able to play him the start of the 3rd movement are SLIM...


Just goes to show how inaccurate perceptions can be!

Perhaps he knew that most people would say "Play the Pathetique!"

The Hammerklavier is unquestionably the most difficult of the 32. There is no competition for this fact at all!

Yes, Sir Hammerklavier! Your sonata is indeed the hardest and most fiendish of them all!

Ha Ha! I just wish I could play it!! It's my favourite of them all and have been fortunate enough to hear my favourite pianist (John Lill) perform it many times (hence the choice of name for the forums!). It's an amazing work. At least Beethoven was kind in making the slow movement reasonably playable for those pianists who consider themselves to be humble amateurs (myself definitely included!).

There seems to be a lot of interest in the degrees of difficulty of the 32 Sonatas. Whereas its fairly obvious that Op49 No 2 is the easiest and the Hammerklavier the hardest, there has to be some element of subjectivity also.
I have an old Bosworth edition (hardback) containing all 32 Sonatas arranged in a so called 'degree of difficulty' . Originally edited by Franz Liszt.
Its in the loft but I'll dig it out, and list them for you! I dont necessarily agree, so I will put + when I think it should be rated harder and - when it should be rated easier.. Watch this space!

That would be great!

OK, further to my previous post, here is the Bosworth Edition 'Degree of Difficulty' ITs not to far out I would say, however:

I indicate + where I personally think its harder, and - where I think its easier than the position indicated, but usually by only 2 or 3 places

Op 49 No 2 in G
Op 49 No 1 in G Minor
Op 79 in G
Op 14 No 2 in G
Op 14 No 1 in E
Op 2 No 1 in F Min
Op 10 No 1 in C Min
Op 10 No 2 in F (-)
Op 2 No 2 in A (+)
Op 2 No 3 in C
Op 10 No 3 in D (+)
Op 13 (Pathetique) in C Min
Op 22 in B flat
Op 28 in A Flat
Op 7 in E Flat (+)
Op 78 in F#
Op 26 in D (Pastorale)
Op 31 No 3 in E Flat (-)
Op 31 No 1 in G (+)
Op 90 in E Min
Op 27 No 1 In E Flat
Op 27 No 2 in C# minor (Moonlight) (-)
Op 54 in F
Op 31 No 2 in D Minor
Op 53 (Waldstein) in C (-)
Op 81a (Les Adieux) in E Flat
Op 57 (Appassionata) in F Minor
Op 101 in A
Op 110 in A Flat
Op 109 in E
Op 111 in C Minor
Op 106 (Hammerklavier) in B Flat

Apologies for any small errors in Opus numbers or Keys

Me too!! The first movement is so overplayed, and this one is so underplayed! Mind you, it does look horrifically difficult; I've never tackled it myself, but it's on the to-do list for when the rest of the world stops turning for a while.

EDIT - Talking about the Moonlight Sonata - in case you're reading this post in isolation!

I really do not find the third movement all that difficult, much of the passagework is just in common arpeggios. Theres a bit with some double octave leaps with thr right hand that is difficult to get accurate every time. Most Grade 8 players should be able to learn it.