Wasn't sure where to put this, in the Adults or here
In September I am going to see an orchestra, and possibly join it. It is a community orchestra, and they are mostly way above my standard of Grade 5. The question is, I have never done this before, so what are the do's and don'ts of being in an orchestra, the ettiquette if you like
Also, a different question, but, are different sections of orchestras different in character. Are the strings arty, and the brass more down to earth, and so on if you get the drift??
Thanks.
Beverley.

At our school, there are deffinetley personalities for the different sections

The Strings - The Violins are very female doggish and some what believe they are superior, the rest are similar but not as bad

The Woodwind - The flutes are very sweet and extremley quiet. The clarinets are quite quiet but often opinionated (sp?) The bassoon is extremley quiet until she blows the instrument

The Brass - Well the brass are very loud and never shut up.

The percussion - Not much to say about these really...no offence

And thats our school orchestra !!!

Hope i haven't scared you

Ben

I am sure that most of it will be explained to you as you begin rehearsals. Here are a few pointers though. First of all, make sure that your instrument is correctly tuned. The oboist will sound an A and then you can all check your tuning with that. They might ask the leader to help with this, especially if the group is quite large. Take a music stand with you. If you do not need it leave it in your bag, but you may well want one. Make sure that it is marked with your name. They tend to go walk about. If you borrow music be sure to take it to each practice. Don't rely on anyone else to take theirs. And most important of all, listen to your conductor. Do not use the tuning period as an opportunity to have a quick play or to show off your latest solo. If he asks for silence stop straight away. He may do this by putting his baton down, by tapping it on his music stand or simply by starting to speak. They all mean "SHUT UP!" Have fun and let us know what happens please

Crikey - you've got me to a T there!

A few tips:
DON'T be late for rehearsals - although this is probably not so bad with an local community orchestra.
DON'T busily practice a passage while the conductor is talking.
DO have a pencil and eraser with you - both are mandatory pieces of equipment for a musician...along with your instrument of course!

Yes, there are different characteristics within each section. The brass - trumpets, trombones esp. - are generally the type to be out of the door first and will be propping up the bar in the nearest pub before anyone else has even packed their instrument in its case.

Strings (violins) are a mixture of those who just get on with the job, some who rule the roost - leader and person sat immediately next to him/her - and some who just like to think they lead, by bossing others around. Viola, cello and bass players are a bit more reserved generally, although it's not totally out of the question to find one or two who think they are the bees-knees.

Woodwind is a bit of mixture too. Flautists can be a bit aloof, especially so if they are female, (dons tin hat and awaits fallout ). Oboe tends to be happy to go with the flow, but can also be a bit of a loner, while clarinet is somewhat more outgoing. Bassoon usually prefers to just get on with things.

French horns have an identity crisis on their hands, depending on whether they are blending with the woodwind or blasting with the brass.

Percussion tend to be a bit like brass players - in the pub as soon as things are finished.


EDIT: following comments about clarinet. Opinionated, yes, but I don't know any that are quiet!!

Good luck with it all.
They ought to all be friendly - even if they do already know it all

One point I can think of, always use the pencil AmandaL mentioned for writing anything on your music, NEVER use ink.

I agree about stopping the moment the conductor stops. Too much time wasted otherwise.

I joined a light orchestra about a year ago and the conductor gave no quarter... sight-reading music at speed. So I made sure I played the first note, counted like ###### and played the last note in the right place!! Second time through I managed a few more notes...

Remember also, don't play the bit that's left over at the end

Seen Walter Bergmann's Golden Rules for Ensemble Playing? Worth reading for a smile at least




sorry - didn't realise 'counted like the opposite of heaven' would be **** out



forgot to mention that OBVIOUSLY the saxes are the best instruments .....

^ I'm guessing this was what you wetre talking about with the golden rules for emsemble playing. Yes - we have tried them all in our school orchestra practices!! Also have a look at the flute and brass players ones as well because some of them are appropriate to everyone.

As for do's and don'ts - i agree with all the above, but also with regards to tuning, keep listening to the tuning of your instrument the whole way through. From past experience woodwind instruments tend to go very sharp once they warm up, and you may find that halfway through a piece you are way out with tuning. Umm.....never argue with violinists or anyone else who think's they're important (i've found it's best to just humour them and let them think they're important - despite being a violinist - i still humour our lead violin). Also - like it says in one of those rules in the link - always look at your conductor now and again and do what they say. They like to feel needed. We discovered the consequences of not doing this one night when our music teacher stormed out and threatened to commit suicide The worst bit was that she stormed out and other than me and my mate (who went to find her), everyone else carried on playing and didn't notice - show's how much attention they payed!!

Also, from past experience, if you practice on a stage - NEVER sit your chair too close to the edge. If someone tries to squeeze in next to you, and you're kind enough to move up, you normally end up on the floor with the chair on top of you. If you're lucky the person who caused you to fall off the stage might catch your instrument (but won't offer to help you up!!).

Errr... with regards to the sections of the orchestra then i pretty much agree with all the above. In our school orchestra theres the snobby grade 8 1st violin who has her primo part. Then there's the rest of the first violines (about grade 4/5) who kinda just get on with the job. Then we have the grade 2/3 seconds, and grade 1 thirds who are all scared to play incase snobby primo person gets onto them for doing it wrong. The cellos are normally in a world of their own and our only double bass is also a celloist, and therefore the same as the cellos.
Woodwinds are normally quiet. The flutes quite often have arguments within their section but don't normally bother anyone else, and are quite organised when they actually get round to playing. If you have a piccolo they can be quite high strung (and also highly playing). The oboe often seems quite alone and think's she's a flute. The clarinets are a very mixed bunch - some organised and get on with it, the others are grade 1 people trying to play a first clarinet part, and then realising they're either playing the wrong piece or in the wrong key. Saxaphones are not to be messed with, and the bassoon keeps herself to herself, plays her part perfectly - until she breaks her reed and gets a splinter in her lip - at which point everything falls apart!!
Brass are loud, badly behaved and never pay attention. They always seem to be doing their own thing, driving the conductor mad, and the flutes get great pleasure out of trying to shoot jellybeans out of their flutes and into the tubas!!
Purcussion rarely bothers to turn up, and when it does it's normally organised. Otherwise you have other people trying to multitask (in the past i've had sleigh bells on my bow arm while playing the violin), and a triangle hanging from my stand with a beater attached to my foot while playing the flute.

Yes...we have interesting school orchestras!!

Can't really add much here, except tht the brass secton (When they turn up) always seem to get on everynoes nerves, to the pont where my friend threw the tuba players music down his bell. Make sure you come with spare reeds or equivalent for your instrument- also if you do play a reed instrument make sure you have a strength that you can manage to play for a considerable about of time. Try to start and end in the same place as everyone else and you'll be fine! Keep an eye on the conductor while playing too.

Cellists and horn players are chilled out and very cool. They seem to wear flip-flops rather too often and crack jokes quietly.
Violinists rock but I expect some people think we're loud and over-opinionated.
Viola players and bassists don't tend to talk much. When they do, they're nice.
Oboe players are SO annoying (no offence) - they seem to know best about everything. No-one else agrees.
Flautists are cool and laid back.
Clarinetists and bassoonists are quiet during rehearsal, but not so much outside. Quite ######y really.
Brass players are normal. A suspicious number are from the North.
Percussionists...I dunno. I don't really talk to them. They hang around with brass players.
Harp/piano players who get called in at the last minute (as always) tend to be very sociable.

My experience of 9 years of orchestral playing in about 20 orchestras! I never realised quite how similar certain instrumental players tend to be.


Pencils, make it a 2B or softer or you wont be able to rub stuff out.
ring a piece of card or something, so that if you have those wire music stands you can write on the music without having to take it off balance it on your knee along with instrument and end up putting holes through it while trying to write, and hold everyone up.
If you're a string player, and you get lost, it's bad orchestral practice but more practical to look at the person in front of you and see what their bow is doing (assuming they're good) than to look at the conductor and try to figure out which bar you're in.
Try not to irritate the conductor because they can be pretty nasty people if you catch them in the mood. Especially the males. It's like they're constantly really hormonal or something. The worst thing to do are ask for bowings too many times, play in GPs etc.
When you're not playing because other sections are being rehearsed, practice the difficult passages silently, or think through your part as it would sound with the section who are currently playing.

Interesting. No one seems to know much about percussionists.

That's vital. I wouldn't use any pencil harder than 2B on music, and more often use 4B. Black enough to be easily read without having to press hard and easy to rub out when the conductor changes its mind! As well as anything the conductor asks for, write in anything that will help you personally to get it right next time and rub it out again when you no longer need it.

I run an elementary orchestra for adults so a lot of people arrive with no experience of playing in a conducted group. Your first responsibility is to do your best to place your chair, yourself and your music stand so that you can see your music all the way to the bottom of the page and every beat the conductor gives (most of the time with peripheral vision only) without moving anything more than your eyes. For some people that's impossible because of their eyesight/glasses. As you start the last note of a piece watch the conductor directly so that you stop with everyone else, then "freeze" until the conductor puts its arms down. That's the professional way to end (watch the orchestras at the Proms) and if you get into that habit you will never be the one to break the mood of the music early.

It's my repeated experience that rests cause more problems than notes. I started as a pianist and was extremely shocked when I first played flute in an orchestra as an adult to find that I could get lost counting four bars' rest in 4/4. If you're lucky the conductor will give a downbeat at the beginning of every bar, whatever the time signature, and you can count them on your fingers during multiple bars' rest.

I get everyone to practise a survival technique that I call leapfrog sight-reading. It's intended to help people who are tackling music that's really too difficult for them to play, perhaps at all but certainly at sight. In every bar play only whatever starts on the first beat, as accurately as possible (pitch, length, dynamic level, style - staccato etc.) then look ahead and get ready for the beginning of the next bar. The idea is that if you can manage this you will still be in the right place when there's an easy bit. Playing the notes the right length is probably the main thing to concentrate on at first so that you don't hang on too long and cause a discord.


I think I've seen them on the Forums somewhere.

Go along prepared to have a go, and do your best not to panic if it all seems ridiculously difficult for the first few weeks. Enjoy! You are about to get involved in the wonderful world of social music-making. If you don't get into the orchestra at the moment see if you can find a concert band to join - all the same things apply but there are usually more people playing each of the parts.

It's fantastic that you might be joining an orchestra! Orchestral playing is my favourite thing in the world!

The thing I love most about being in an orchestra is the feeling i get when I play concerts. The music makes me shiver and I get really emotional at the end of the concerts because I always feel so proud of everybody and the way everyone works as a massive team! (Providing it's gone well!)

I agree, that there are different personalities for different sections. In my experience (I don't want to offend anyone by the way!) string players tend to be very competitive and serious towards each other and woodwind and brass players pull together more.

My main tips would be- practice the music at home, conductors can't stand it if you haven't learnt a certain part of the music between rehearsals. Another thing I would say is that counting is so important in an orchestra and to follow the section leader and watch the conductor as much as possible.

Sorry if I've repeated anything anyone else has said, I've been so lazy and haven't read all of the above posts!

Well said dacapo.... everything else is right too, but the way you have summed it up is just SO right.

Enjoy!!
& "wonderful world of social music-making" absolutely. In a way none of the rest of it mattes as much as those comments.

Ooooh...also if you're a string player be extra careful not to drop your rosin. People don't appriciate when it gets smashed all over the floor and leaves a big sticky mess.

Wind players - try to avoid too larger puddles (condensation for woodwinds, spit for brass ) on the floor next to wear you are sitting - it p*sses the strinf players off (i know that not only from being in the string section, but also from watching the strings shout at the wind players about it.

Ooooh, and if you play more than one instrument in the orchestra it's a good idea to take both. From past experience when i've decided to be lazy and only take my flute because there's normally waaaay more violins than flute, you can garentee that there will be about 6 flutes who never normally come will turn up, and that you will be left with no first violins. For some reason it always seems to be my fault as well for not bringing the violin.

That's because ours never bother turning up!

In our school band, flutes are quite loud - we always like a good laugh! One of the clarinets is lovely and pretty quiet, the other is loud and thinks he's fab! We don't currently have an oboe, but the sax players are very quiet but really nice when you talk to them! The strings like shouting across the room (as do most of us). Trumpets have a slight crisis in that the (now fired) 3rd trumpet (about grade 2/3 I think) liked to think he was much better than the first trumpet (working on grade 8) so there was lots of screaming (and not just within that section - our head of music had to break up a whole-band argument that erupted during a rehearsal break!) The brass section seem to take the place of the usual strings in that they think they're fab and play the best instruments (cue shouting from the rest of the band). Percussionists are currently none existant, though 2 of the brass players do a fantastic line in cowbell variations One of the trombonists and the tuba player haven't quite got the hang of turning up on time (if they appear at all!) which at least gives us a laugh

In the residential wind band I've played with, the flutes are always told off for talking, the clarinets are the ones who can't hit the right notes, saxs tend to either not play or play too loudly, then blame it either on each other or on the fact they don't have any music (which they've lost...). Brass drown out the whole band and are pretty loud, confident and like a laugh! The percussion players are shared with the orchestra, so are only supposed to be present at half the practices, but manage to dissappear during most of these due to various excuses (need a loo break, forgotten drum sticks/other weird bits nd bobs, feeling ill etc) and like standing there looking either lost or bored

Hope you have a really fab time - I've loved playing in bands it's so much fun! let us know how it goes

xxx

Never be late for rehersals!
(that's out of a personal experiment)

Oh man, you just described the conductor of our county youth orchestra when I was in it! He was a great conductor and got amazing stuff out of us, but boy could he be moody (usually when bawling us out for not being able to sight-read ever-changing rhythms that he'd forgotten to rehearse before we played with the soloist the first time )


Best advice I've read in ages!


Amen!

One quote from one of my conductors- 'You can play all the wrong notes you like, but I'll kill anyone who can't play a rest properly!'

Yup it is !!! It really does boost your confidence and inspires you to get better. Having the chance to join an orchestra is a marvelous opportunity !!

I have learnt lots been in my school orchestra and also my local music centre orchestra.

Good Luck

Ben

I'll have to remember that one

Ben

I admit , that is really true and expressive.

Heehee, it's like of the rules of ensemble playing - "a wrong note played timidly is a wrong note, a wrong note played with authority is an interpretation!!"

Thanks so much for all the advice. It has been so useful. You people always come up trumps. Will let you know how it all goes.
Thanks again.
Beverley.

Good Luck Beverley !! What date do your first see the Orchestra or when the first rehersal?

I have found this a very interesting thread as I too am giving an orchestra a try - first time on 12 September. It's a small, very local orchestra and the only one I could find within a reasonable distance that did not set a standard for joining. Unfortunately the bass section is very small indeed - currently one bassoon, which means that my cello will be heard only too clearly! At least I'm used to playing with other people, having done a lot of recorder ensemble and orchestra work, and am aware of the basic rules.




I think I'm going to need the leapfrog sight reading - my sight reading is quite reasonable for the stage I'm at, but I don't do fast because the intonation goes! I'll try not to panic, too. I'm really looking forward to making music locally - my other social music making I do requires quite a bit of travelling.

I hope you enjoy your experience of orchestral playing, Beverley.

that's just because our conductor hated the flutes he was so p'sed off with you guys...

also at our orchestra we'd find most of the evening was a violin sectional so i'd be sitting there doing nothing for like half an hour at a time. might be an idea to bring something else along (for example, during gcses i brought revision so i could revise whilst the string players learnt to play their instruments ), but don't make it obvious that you're not paying attention, especially as you'll be sitting fairly near the conductor...

and woodwinds the best, specifically the bassoonist

Hi Beverley

The tips I would add to the above are to get a flute stand (about £10 - £20) as if your flute is safe on there, it is less likely to get dropped / scratched / dented when you're writing things down, or being asked to play the tambourine for a bit

As well as leapfrog sight reading (we call it kangarooing ) you should also develop the ability to sneak a quick breath, but keep your fingers moving as if you are playing - you are less likely to get behind everyone else if you can do this.

And we are encouraged NOT to rub out our pencil marks (unless they are wrong!!) even once we know them off by heart, in case you get moved up a part / leave, and someone else takes over - they could be useful to them.

Good luck, hope you have a great time,

Hazel

The orchestra I'm currently playing in is more of a wind band with a few strings (several times I've been the obly violinist and once I was the only string player ) but in general...
Be confidant. Atleast that way if you get it wrong atleast the conducter will know you are finding it difficult and over time will come to know your standard and what you can manage. Or not, depending on the size of the orchestra. Conducters all tend to have their own pet hates, my one at the moment is having a major go at us about phrasing and where we should change bow/breathe, but another one was very concerned with posture and that we were sitiing correctly.

I second the recommendation for pencil and rubber, plus any extra equipment or even instruments you might need (so for brass players that'd be things like your mute and for a flautist that might be a piccolo if you ever get drafted in to playing one).

Cues (written in smaller notes with the instrument that's playing it above) are your friend if you get lost counting (and it's worth counting - the cues may not turn up when you're all sight-reading!). It's worth making sure you can connect what's notated with what's being played - if you suspect you won't be able to hear what's being played, keep half an eye on the player/section who should be playing it.

Hope you really enjoy it - playing in orchestras is fantastic. Good luck!

also, though it's not always possible, get a score and recording of the pieces you're playing - it helps SOOOOOO much

I rarely disagree with AmandaL, but my experience of horn sections is of our total confidence of our ability to blend appropriately with any of the other sections

If you're not confident in your own musical and technical ability (even if your confidence is misplaced) the horn is not the right instrument for you.

My school orchestra are working towards 'the sound of music'. Here is a summary of our players:

The very small group of 3 first violins are lead by a rather snobby boy who never laughs at any jokes and speaks in a posh voice. He's quite quiet and has a pickup on his violin but no mute. (That says something don't you think.) The other two firsts play the music ok, but their tone is a bit screechy. They seem sensible but a little out of their depth.

The 3 second violins consist of a leader who is friends with the only bassist, this violinist is grade 6 standard and confidently leads the very small second section. Her and the girl sitting next to her burst into fits of giggles at random intervals, and always forget to come in because they're too busy laughing. The 3rd second is a quiet boy who hangs around with the two other seconds and the bassist. Grade 3 standard.

The flutes are sisters, two years apart. The eldest who plays first flute got grade 8 with distinction in year 10. The youngest who plays second flute is on grade 6. They play perfectly in unison. Both are very pouty with emphasised features. Both genuinley nice girls who always pack stands/chairs away after reheasel.

Oboe player is quite quiet and reserved, but was caugt speaking on the phone during rehearsel and temperarily locked the second violins in the kitchen during the intervel.

Bassoon player proudly announced that she owns a pencil saying 'I love my bassoon' on it .

The french horn player is always missing rehearsels due to injury (eg. hit in the head by a hockey stick) hangs around with the violinists.

Trumpets are very quiet. You barley hear anything from them apart from their instruments.

Percussion is a boy who is ALWAYS getting into trouble for one reason or another.

And THATS our orchestra...

Holy thread revival, Batman!

Reading this thread did make me chuckle, thanks to violin123 for reviving it.



Regards, Peter.

In my youth orchestra the violins definately think we are better than everyone else.

However I know tht we have a tiny handul of amazing players and a larger quantiy of not very good players.

It all somehow evens its self out.

For example the back 2 desksof 2nd violin areyoung not very good players. However both of the front violin desks are practically note pefect every time. That is what comes from having an NYO musican as the leader.

We could do with more oboes, 2 is not enough. Likewise we don't have enough viola players, 6 just won't do. Also need more bass players, 1 is not enough! So if you play these instruments I beg you to join my youth orchestra.

Hmm... I'm not quite sure that I like how people are generalising sections here - the oboists in MY orchestra weren't annoying, nor were we know-it-alls! Every orchestra's pretty different, each with their own characteristics! In ours, the woodwind section would often come out wearing similar clothes

How very dare you!!

In the concert wind band at my school, the conductor (who plays piano and everything woodwind-y) continually ignores the bassoons and oboes, picks on the flutes and clarinets for not tonguing properly, then yells at the saxes - but that's probably because they're just both very annoying boys. He is always nice to the tubas - I think that's because there used to only be one, and he didn't want to scare him off. Now it's become a habit!! He does not differentiate between cornets and trumpets, calls the smallest trombone player 'Squirt' and is nice to the euphonium player because she's the Head of Music. Anyone else gets ignored like the bassoons do.

(He's my bassoon teacher. Luckily I play clarinet in that wind band!)

Youth Orchestra (in which I play bassoon, or try to anyway):
Bassoonists - we sit at the back poking the oboists with our instruments, telling jokes and stealing each other's reeds. Childish, I know...
Oboists sit there (a) getting very annoyed with the bassoonists, and (b) showing off that they can play the long, fast runs. I have to admit that they are both extremely talented musicians, though.
Brass - there's only 3 of them so, together with the clarinets, they are generally quiet and sensible.
Percussion are normally found hiding behind a corner for a chat or a snack, though when they do play, they're very good.
There are at least 5 flutes, who spend most of their time arguing with the conductor or laughing.
Finally, the strings pay attention and work hard - well, there are only about 8 violins and at least 10 cellos, so it's not very balanced!

Anyone in the Cambridge area who plays brass, violin or viola to about G5-6 standard and is interesting in coming, you're very welcome to just turn up - PM for details. No flautists or cellists need apply!! Nothing personal, you understand...

Wow i'm glad I revived this thread, i've heard a lot about violins being 'studious'... not entirley sure about that

Gordon Bennet, I'd forgotten this thread.
I am still there though.
THe strings are the quietest. Bassoons are fun. Oboes are very helpful. Clarinets appear shy but aren't.
I thought the flutes were quite staid, but getting to know them all, maybe not
Bev

In our orchestra (which I admit to not being a part of, YET ) the two bassoonists are highly opinionated, one grade three standard and one approaching grade two. Four flautists, all a bit different personality wise but genuinely lovely girls, the oldest in final year sixth form at grade seven, and the youngest in year nine and still not confident in her abilities. Five clarinettists, tend to keep themselves to themselves, and an oboist, a French teacher who plays in the sheer absence of anyone else. Brass is saxophones, tuba, trombone and trumpet. The eldest flautist doubles as a saxophonist when needed, and is very friendly with the other saxophonist. The trombonists are very loud but nice, nice boys. The tuba and one of the trumpets are dating and spend all their time together, and the other trumpet is...simply a nightmare. He plays, by his own definition "ALL brass instruments." His criteria for being able to play seems to be being able to get out a few notes, and that qualifies him as playing them all. He is consistently out of tune, has no sense of dynamics, and constantly feels the need to correct everyone else, even when he has no idea what he's talking about! There's always one... The strings consist of a cellist, a quiet, highly talented boy who gets on well with the double bassist. Violin section is largest of the orchestra, three first violins, a terrificly talented, highly excitable section leader, another languages teacher and a small hyper sixth former, three second violins, two quiet sixth formers and a girl three years younger with fantastic tone and grade five standard. Then two little year eights playing third violin, who do very little practice and spend most of their time messing around, and a former pupil of the school (who happens to be my violin teacher ) who gets roped into playing the viola line every concert!

I swear my youth orchestra has the worlds moodiest conductor. We were playing Bruckner symphony 4 and he was stopping us all the time just to sayhow badly he thought we were playing it and how we were not playing the tempo he wanted.

I think he should be used to it by now. We play rubbish in rehearsals and then on the night when people come to watch we play it amazingingly.

Yup unfortunately I know quite a few of those. We're not all like that I promise

Dynamics: Loud, Louder, Loudest?

pp means pretty powerful doesn't it???!

My orchestra's an adult only string orchestra and we're quite a mixed bunch.

Some have played all their lives and are very encouraging to the rest of us.

Some have returned to their instrument after playing as a child. They're delighted to be playing again.

Some have never played an instrument and are learning as an adult. They're happy to have found a group to play with.

Some have come from a fiddling background, so can get round the instrument quickly but are not always happy about counting or reading music.

Some, such as me, have played a totally different instrument quite well when younger and now are learning a string instrument. We sometimes get a little impatient with ourselves are we know what we want to do just haven't got all the skills needed yet.

Some how it all comes together and between us we play something which doesn't sound too bad.

They let a few MPs into the orchestra after the expenses scandal?

You just summed him up in three words Solari

I agree that some conductors can be VERY moody. But only because they want us to do our best...