I plan to teach my daughter 11+ non-verbal reasoning next Jan (2007). She is in yr 5 (this autumn term) and has just started some maths papers this week. She seems to be doing well beyond our expectations so this will continue until then. Her Maths and English are very good indeed so the concentration must I suppose be on NVR. After all, VR is very much like reading between the lines and not into or over, etc, and is basically akin to a deeper understanding of language.

She has to sit for the 11+ because both the schools with strong music depts in our area require this test for entry and scholarship purposes and we are applying for 2 scholarships plus bursaries in both! Am I mad or something? My hands are already full dog-training day and night a highly demanding toddler with severe learning difficulties. Oh well, I choose to be positive!

Anyway, the local 11+ tests will usually be held in early Jan 2008. That is a very long time away so we shd have plenty of time and a nicely relaxed pace. I used to do NVR tests when trying for new employment in the past and I believe I can still do them. However, I am not sure I can explain the thought process to a child? I just DO them if you know what I mean? It's a bit like my friend's young teacher who simply cannot explain clearly to her (the student is a teenager) how to do vibrato as she herself discovered it naturally and just DO it?

Consequently, I would be VERY grateful if those parents or others (grammar school teenagers who are young enough to remember their tests) who have gone before me could PM or E-mail me please with some practical advice? For example, are there any teacher's guide books for NVR?

Many thanks indeed!

I've found a book on NVR by Philip Kay!

Grr don't get me started on the 11+, I failed it 13 years ago and still feel like a "failure" despite gaining a degree 2 years ago. It's the most unfair system, my best friend passed and trotted off to the local grammar, and me to the secondary modern. Bucks still loves its grammar schools, and guess where most of the resources go to?

Dear Tess,

My daughter is also entering Year 5 (back tomorrow) and so I am starting to prepare her for the tests too. She is trying the "Bond" series of practice papers which seem to be clear and don't use gimmicks.

We'll have to walk though them together!

Tess,

For my older daughter we used the bond papers and it seemed to work. You have just reminded me that we need to start thinking about this for our younger daughter - also just going into year 5 - I had rather put it out of my mind. Must go out and buy some once they are all safely back in school.

It did seem the first time round that it was practice that worked. The tests did become easier over time. This is a bit silly really as I think they are meant to be used like IQ tests as a raw test of your intelligence without reference to how well you have been taught - but in fact like most other things people sem to be able to improve their score with tuition or practice.

Poor sausages! As you know, Japan is Exam ###### writ large, and coming from NZ (where I somehow grew up thinking that swotting for tests was really a kind of cheating ), it's all been a bit of a shock.

Viohazard had to pass an exam to enter junior high school last year, and Airman is just gearing up for very competitive exams to enter high school. If it's any use, this is what we've learned...

1) Nothing like doing old exam papers to build up exam muscle, but 6-8 months out (after revising basics) may be enough time.

2) Even bright kids benefit from the basics. Oddly enough, little and often and not too hard seems to put rocket fuel in their wings!

With language, the key is probably comprehension (and even kids who are good at comprehension can stand a little practice, as it will help avoid panicky mistakes through misreading exam questions in other subjects too). With math, although you have a different curriculum from Japan, long division is particularly useful when you start algebra; and geometry is pretty much the first "big" topic for high school, so check that kids know the basics about 2 and 3-dimensional figures.

3) If you have the kind of ear-oriented music-loving kids who can't read maps, they may need extra help in learning to read/see all the information on an exam paper under stress.

Don't overdo it! Keeping up a bare minimum daily over time is heaps better than huge, undigested lumps of study. I know, I know, that's what everybody says, but when you have kids who spend a fair amount of time practicing their instruments, the tortoise approach brings rewards.

....and frankie82, the only person I know who failed the 11+, dropped out, and later went back to school "to learn arithmetic", and ended up studying astrophysics currently teaches at a university...

and good luck!

My child will sit the 11 plus in a matter of weeks. She had 1 of each paper at school and we have just started having a look at some papers. I think 6-8 weeks is plenty long enough. Your kids are going to be sick to death of it all. They have so much on their plates these days.
Many of her friends have had private tuition some for up to two years. Surely if they need this much help they are going to struggle with the work at the school should they be lucky enough to get in. Many parents have gone against what the Primary school Head has advised.
Our Head believes had they made Level 5 in Y5 sats they should apply. Many are way below this benchmark. Some don't stand a chance, some may just make it if they live in catchment and had years of it been thrust down their necks. These kids will surely struggle with the work once at the school, I would rather mine be top of a Comprehensive and happy than be bottom of a Grammar and be unhappy.

Many apologies! I think I need to clarify some important points here before Frankie or Pudding burst!

First, our daughter asked me to teach her. It wasn't me!!! It's what she wants bec she has good "musical" reasons.

She very MUCH wants to go to Menuhin / Purcell some day but I insisted she goes to a "normal general" school as opp to a MSS in order to keep her non-musical options open for as LONG as psb. This way she can join Menuhin / Purcell much later in yr 9 or 10.

However, to make up for the music deficit, we went around looking for schools that are well resourced for music and make music a priority. We discovered 2 and that both are independent schools. If she can't have the MSSs now, well, she thought then she would prefer to go to these 2 private ones with strong music depts rather than the nearby comp school plus the 2 local grammar schools that are all "boringly" academic.

Secondly, we were told today that I am wrong to call the 2 tests "11 plus". It isn't the 11 plus at all the teacher said! Even though the 4 papers in the relevant schools are very similar, the emphasis is mostly on Maths and English (especially Composition) and the correct name we were told, is - "scholarship tests" and the minimum level for scholarship tests is Level 6. Not Level 5. The teacher thought that our girl is at Level 5 but there must be some mistake somewhere. Anyway, they will re-assess again this month so we'll know for sure by Nov.

By the way, Pudding, you are right abt the level required as the teacher did say that grammar schools require Level 5 although even within this level there are differing marks. But hey! Not all comprehensive schools are dubious!

The comprehensive school near my home (only 10 mins walk!) is a very good school, er, academically speaking! It is top in Sports and Science and even offers 3 separate branches/subjects in Science! It is also THE top school in the borough! But they don't care a hoot about music their students informed us! No orchestra/ensemble/any incentive in musical endeavours and its school concerts are bi-annual. Not even a choir! Good grief. Now, of course, the child can play music elsewhere at RAM/RCM/County/Borough level BUT that's not quite the same as having some (classical or otherwise) music-loving peers. Some teenage pianists tell me that in a school like that, it's easy to be called a sissy or a geek. No generalisation or scare story here. It's just so NICE to have some "musical" peers. My friend's kid didn't find any such peer in the local grammar school (listed in DT recently as being in the top 10 state school in London) where ALL music activities are suspended annually in the exam term!

Sorry for the misunderstanding but THANKS to you all for the GOOD advice and for G's long PM! Apologies for the bit of rambling, too.

We've been through the process with two very different children. My daughter sailed through the 11+ with a minimum of help - just a bit of tweeking here and there and practice of certain types of questions at the last minute. My son needed quite a bit of help which I gave him because he really wanted to go to the local grammar which has a good musical reputation. I found that working steadily in year 5 during term time was good, and then have 2 weeks off in the summer holidays betw. year 5 & 6, then 2 smaller more focussed sessions a week for the rest of the hols and the run in to the exam worked for us.

I think you can tell whether a child will cope with grammar school work or not. I'm really not in favour of pushing children beyond their abilities, but my son has settled well and can cope. With moderate help in the run up to the exam, all you are doing is levelling the playing field.

i was just going to say if you are doing NVR for a whole year before the exam, shes going to be so bored of i that when it gets closer to really needing to practice, she wont be at all motivated. hmm. i didnt take the 11+ i dont think.

ah. just asked my (teacher) dad. i didnt take the old 11+, but took entrance exams to the school I'm now at (6 years later). and in his teacher opinion, he says "unless you think your child is seriously lacking in NVR, don't try to teach her it so early before she needs it. Closer to the time will be more effective". xxx

EDIT: ah. just read the last post in the right order mine was a scholarship paper too, and if she wants to do it...well thats great xxx

Thanks, Lucie! You are right!!!

Just received advice today that (sorry to boast as I am about to here ) the kid is very bright and the reiteration that in scholarship exams, which is VERY different in emphasis to 11 plus, what a kid needs to excel in are Maths and Eng, particularly Composition and effective expression when speaking during interviews, thank God. He (male teacher this time) said the V and NVR if relevant in scholarship papers normally is a secondary consideration unlike in the 11 plus where they are pre-eminent (and often started as early as 6-12 months). In the scholarship papers we were aiming to do, one only needs to pass them, that's all. So practice could literally be started just a few weeks be4 the real thing. What a revelation! Phew, what a relief!

Ah, I get you now! Hadn't been on for a while, computer had busted up... but that's all good!