One of my very young pupils was playing her first hands together piece today! When she'd finished I asked her "didn't that sound nice?" She said, "it does on this piano, but it all sounds the same on my keyboard!"

When I asked what she meant, it turned out that something had gone wrong with the keyboard she practises on, so that every key is now tuned to the same pitch

The poor soul had been practising on it all week! Imagine how her scales must have sounded?! I was very impressed with her that she had still played it despite the monotonous sound, and even though she only got to hear the melody of her tunes when she played them today!

Thankfully she is getting a new instrument soon!

xxxx

I wonder whether this situation is more common with children learning piano.
Are there any other instruments where it is fairly common for parents to expect their children to decide whether they like playing before they get an instrument or to manage for a long time on an instrument that is no longer suitable (when the keyboard is broken or no longer has enough notes)?

It's probably better than the opposite effect

- I spent the 1970s learning the electric organ (against my wishes) because we already had one.

It possibly is more common with the piano. If they don't own one to begin with, it's a major purchase and frequently finding room in the house for one is also an issue.

Our family has always had a piano in the house, so naturally I prefer and am used to a real piano. It used to be more common for people to own pianos, even if they didn't play them, but not as common now. A few of my pupils use digital pianos. Obviously I prefer an acoustic above anything, but I don't have any complaints about the pupils' progress on the digitals, and they are still on the lower grades, so I'm happy enough.

Even the pupils who practise on (and like) the digitals admit that the sound my piano produces is so much different from the sound their's does - even though they can't quite put their finger on it - it shows they are aurally aware!

xxxxx




Poor you! I see you've kept up playing the piano though, so some good has come out of it in the end!

xxx

I think it is more common with the piano, and I find that it's the pupils who have lessons in school who tend not to have pianos. In the past, we've assumed that the family has a piano, or at least a large keyboard or electric piano, until we found that someone was learning to play on one of those tiny toy keyboards.

Now the head of music checks firmly that there's a suitable instrument at home, and believe it or not, one parent actually said that they wanted to see how the child progressed before getting an instrument!!!! Parents would not have dreamt of saying that if child had been going to learn the clarinet or violin. And there are piano suppliers round here who will rent out pianos too.

and I know all my chords (though I loath the sound of electric organs now)

I'm not so sure about that. I've met several families who have expected their child to learn on a flute that belonged to one of the parents when they were younger, in one case with so many leaky pads the teacher couldn't get more than two notes out of it, with the attitude 'If it was good enough for me, it's good enough for her'.

Others buy the cheapest instrument possible, which easily goes out of adjustment. They won't countenance parting with the £300-400 necessary for a decent student instrument until the child has proved her worth.

Yes, I've had that with the oboe - parents pick up a very cheap instrument from somewhere or have one in the cupboard that belonged to an aunt which just doesn't work well, even if they agreed to spend some money on getting it serviced (and often they won't do that either!). They expect their child (who's going to find oboe hard enough going in the early days anyway) to become a miraculous overnight sensation on this battered wreck before they'll consider upgrading to something that makes a reliable sound.

My usual experience with pianists is that most are using keyboards at home. These vary from quite respectable instruments with sustain pedal and reasonable range (and for early days I regard them as satisfactory, though clearly not idea) through to "toy town" mini-sized keys instruments with barely two octave range.

Just occasionally you get some real surprises. A piano pupil of mine is preparing for Grade 5 and doing the jazz piece from Spectrum which absolutely must have pedal. She has a large keyboard at home but without a sustain pedal on it. She's nearly 18 (so not a child anymore) and her parents are professional musicians (though not pianists) but will they equip this keyboard with a pedal? No. It would cost them about £14-20 to do so.

Therefore said pupil rehearses this jazz piece at her school on the battered piano there but, over the summer, has not had access to same and will therefore have worked without it. I did consider changing the piece when I found out but she loves it so much and has done a lot of good work on it already, so that seemed a shame. I offered her the use of my piano over the holiday period if she wanted to book some time on it - she hasn't appeared at all. I don't like to think what will have happened when we resume next week.

It does still amaze me what parents are prepared to consider workable for their children's tuition but I am increasingly firm with them - no suitable instrument, no lessons. It may cost me a few potential pupils but it also saves me a lot of stress. I'd like to think it enourages them to think seriously about an instrument but I suspect, in reality, they just trog off to a teacher who is more accommodating!

Happy teaching all!

Oboist

Yes, I've had that with the oboe - parents pick up a very cheap instrument from somewhere or have one in the cupboard that belonged to an aunt which just doesn't work well, even if they agreed to spend some money on getting it serviced (and often they won't do that either!). They expect their child (who's going to find oboe hard enough going in the early days anyway) to become a miraculous overnight sensation on this battered wreck before they'll consider upgrading to something that makes a reliable sound.

My usual experience with pianists is that most are using keyboards at home. These vary from quite respectable instruments with sustain pedal and reasonable range (and for early days I regard them as satisfactory, though clearly not idea) through to "toy town" mini-sized keys instruments with barely two octave range.

Just occasionally you get some real surprises. A piano pupil of mine is preparing for Grade 5 and doing the jazz piece from Spectrum which absolutely must have pedal. She has a large keyboard at home but without a sustain pedal on it. She's nearly 18 (so not a child anymore) and her parents are professional musicians (though not pianists) but will they equip this keyboard with a pedal? No. It would cost them about £14-20 to do so.

Therefore said pupil rehearses this jazz piece at her school on the battered piano there but, over the summer, has not had access to same and will therefore have worked without it. I did consider changing the piece when I found out but she loves it so much and has done a lot of good work on it already, so that seemed a shame. I offered her the use of my piano over the holiday period if she wanted to book some time on it - she hasn't appeared at all. I don't like to think what will have happened when we resume next week.

It does still amaze me what parents are prepared to consider workable for their children's tuition but I am increasingly firm with them - no suitable instrument, no lessons. It may cost me a few potential pupils but it also saves me a lot of stress. I'd like to think it enourages them to think seriously about an instrument but I suspect, in reality, they just trog off to a teacher who is more accommodating!

Happy teaching all!

Oboist

Reading all these stories makes my blood boil And brings to mind my own story.

I wanted a flute at around the age of 12, and my mother wouldn't get me anything as expensive as that on one of my "whims" ........... but she would however, buy me a piano and i could have piano lessons !!!!! - I knew i wasn't a piano player at heart, i felt to be most definately a woodwind player (i think you know by instinct - don't you ?) So i more or less told her to forget it. I waited until i was 24 to buy my own flute, did all my grades by the time i was 28 (with no other musical training whatsoever) and now teach full time.

My first flute teacher when i was 24 couldn't believe i had never taken flute or recorder lessons previously, and muttered something about if i'd have had the flute when i was 12 i would have been a prodigy but now i was too old for that !!!!

oh well

angie xx
p.s. - i'm now 44 and tend to buy my daughter anything she wants lololololololololol

Many recorder pupils are expected to learn on toy recorders which are out of tune and have a horrible tone. Fortunately a decent recorder only costs £10 so I can persuade most of them to upgrade - but some won't...

I learned piano for 2 years without any keyboard instrument at home at all. I needed to get from scratch up to Grade 6 in 2 and a half years for college applications but we couldn't afford an instrument. I practised at school as much as I could (but was also trying to prepare for Grade 8 violin and wasn't allowed to practise at home) but could do nothing at weekends or during the holidays. Fortunately I was able to get hold of an ancient old wreck about two weeks before my Grade 5 but if my piano teacher had insisted that I had an instrument I'd have been completely stuck...
W

Wow, now that's dedication!!

Willobie: I expect that most teachers with any sense would have sympathy in a situation like that, even if they wouldn't be 100% happy about it.

At least you had access to an instrument and used it when you were able.
I didn't have my own piano when I started but was able to practice in church. I went in most days.

Not so good when you do as my god daughter did. She had a 4 octave keyboard but was able to come to my house to use the piano every day. After a while she just didn't bother at all..... didn't come to my house and didn't practice at home (her music was quite often at mine).

Her teacher (same teacher as I had) said he would have been a bit more pressing about the need for a piano at home if she actually showed any interest in playing.

I heard her gramndmother telling someone how well her teacher thought she was doing...... this was the same week he'd said to me 'I don't know what her mother is thinking of...'

Parents need educated.

Educating???

It's true though - before I started teaching it didn't occur to me that I would have to make sure pupils had something to practise on. I'd just (naively) assumed that would go without saying!

A while ago I taught one of my flute pupils at her house as this was more convenient on this occasion.

I attempted to use her piano for some aural, but it was totally out of tune eg one F higher than the adjacent G. . .

When I commented on this to her mother, the reply I got was, "oh, we've said we'll pay to get it tuned if she passes her Grade One."

Hmmm.

The logic in that is simply baffling That's like saying we'll buy her a second wheel for her bike once she's learned to ride it

xxx

I can imagine the look on her face if you'd pointed out that piano tuning is not a once in a lifetime event but a twice a year one....

I've been teaching myself piano, on a 4 octave keyboard with no touch tone. I do this because, as a clarinet player, I know it will be useful to me, but we do not have the money to pay for either a piano or piano lessons. I imagine a lot of parents will be worse off, but I think they should at least be allowed to try. Otherwise it's almost like saying music lessons are only for those who can afford it. However, the parents who can afford it but won't should live in the real world!

I'm glad to see keyboard being more widely accepted as a skill in its own right. Many people would never have the opportunity to use an instrument were it not for the keyboard (not just because of the price but because it's the sort of instrument that musically disinterested parents are prepared to buy).

When I first started playing Piano I practiced at home on the keyboard my brother used for his keyboard exams. It was a pretty good keyboard - touch sensitive and had a 5 octave range. However, when I got to preparing for my grade 4 Piano, my parents bought an electric Piano which I love. I don't think the keyboard put me at a disadvantage (I got merit in the exams I took when I was practiscing onit), but I can see that non-touch sensitive keyboards wouldn't be good for Piano practice!

eek! - then I'm just as guilty as I'd forgotten about these. It's getting more standard though, as a feature (I think?). I do think they should all come with sustain pedals too.

Thought I’d add a parent’s experience of buying that first instrument here:
If at all possible, I do believe it is definitely worthwhile getting a good quality instrument right from the start, as this makes practice so much more enjoyable (for the parent as well as the child – not to mention the long-suffering neighbours!). Being able to make a “nice sound”, even with very little technical ability, is so encouraging for a beginner.
When my 5-year-old first announced that she wanted to learn piano , I just let her sweat, wondering whether this was a passing phase. Six months down the line, she was still begging for piano lessons, so – realising she was serious and that there was no point signing her up with a teacher unless she had something to practise on at home – I started looking at the available options, including renting, which seemed quite expensive. It was a pretty scary investment for a single mum on a shoestring, especially as I have no musical background myself and didn’t know how to go about choosing an instrument. But in the end, a friend of a friend, who is a pianist, kindly agreed to help out by coming along to a second hand piano shop where she proceeded to play every instrument in the place (wow, that was fun!!!). She finally picked one out that was a little over my budget and, though I was initially reluctant to commit, she won me over with this very sensible argument (for which I am still grateful):
The piano is so good that if my daughter gives up after six months or a year, I can easily resell it at the same price and recoup my costs (hence cheaper than renting). If she does continue with her lessons, she will never need a replacement, even if she goes on to university / conservatoire level, making this a one-off investment. I felt I simply couldn’t lose out, so I went for it – a decision I have never regretted. With an instrument at home that makes such a beautiful sound, piano practice was fun from day one. Apart from the usual ups and downs and plateaux, my daughter has gone from strength to strength and, four years later, still loves playing her piano.
I should perhaps add that this particular piano was actually much better value than some of the others in the shop simply because it happens to be a rather ugly-looking 1950s beast, which a lot of people might not want in their living room (it disappears into my domestic clutter anyway, so no aesthetic problems there). Any remaining scepticism was finally washed away when even the piano tuner enthused about the instrument…

Thanks for sharing that with us, Tiramhurain, and welcome to the Forums.

It's great that you found an instrument which helped motivate your daughter, and that she's progressing well.

I'll second that! Also it's great to hear of a parent who is prepared buy an instrument rather than a piece of furniture! I've gone out with a few parents to look for pianos, but ended up being overruled as the appearance of the piano was more important to them than it's quality as an instrument.

With an instrument at home that makes such a beautiful sound, piano practice was fun from day one.

That's wonderful - I wish the parents of all my pupils could read that !

I was phoned a few weeks ago by a friend of a friend, who had a piano she wanted to get rid of. Was I interested? Well, I had a pupil who was looking for one at the time, so tried to find out a bit more about it.

"It's old. We didn't want to buy a good one. My daughter's got to grade 6 (six!) on it and her teacher's been saying for some time she needs something better."

I little more tactful questioning and it turned out the piano had been tuned once in 15 years. I managed not to choke down the phone and muttered something about how well she had done to get to grade 6 (indeed!)

I appreciate it's not an easy decision as a piano is quite a big outlay. I will start off beginners who don't have one, on the understanding that if they take to it they will need something appropriate at home to play after a term or so. I always ask now when enquiries come in what is available at home to practise on - quite often there is a nasty silence - sometimes even "oh - why do they need to practise?"


Welcome to the forums by the way, tiramhurain. I hope your daughter continues to love her piano!

Amanda - sounds as if you have a keen little pupil there - who will work against the odds! Let's hope she doesn't lose that - it's a great quality to have.

Isn't that one of the nice things about piano though?

OK, so I'm playing about with a keyboard and not a proper piano (I'm assuming a good piano sounds an awful lot better, and a piano that's not been tuned for a while a good bit worse) but one of the eye-openers for me was that it sounded nice right from the start, no having to work at tone and intonation. Interestingly enough I was chatting to someone the other day who's working for a diploma on piano but has just started playing sax so kind of the opposite to me, and she said that as a pianist she'd never appreciated just how difficult it could be learning how to make a nice sound from an instrument.

There are days when I am very dissatisfied with the quality of sound I get when playing the piano.
Yes, if looked after the actual notes are in tune but to get the quality of tone that you want is not always easy to manage consistently.

hmmm, maybe I phrased it wrongly in my ignorance. I'm quite prepared to believe that as you advance in piano playing there are subtleties of tone that are brought about by the player rather than the instrument. However, for the beginner making a pleasant, in tune sound on a decent piano is a lot easier than making a pleasant in tune sound (in fact any sound sometimes) on a flute/clarinet/saxophone/oboe/violin etc

I'm not trying to start a which instrument is better/more difficult thread here, just pointing out one of the differences between the different instrument families that hadn't occurred to me until recently.

I wasn't really trying to start an arguement
It's just been a bit of a problem I've had recently.
I agree that from the beginner point of view tone quality isn't a major issue for pianists.

Having watched my two daughters I think the major advantage of the piano when young children start an instrument is that it is always there and immediately playable. When my elder daughter started the cello aged six and a half she was incapable of getting the instrument out by herself and she didn't have enough strength to unscrew/screw the endpin. These days she can get it out (although usually asks me to do it as I am quicker) but also needs to get the stool to sit on, the plank she rests the endpin in and the music stand and all these have to go away when she finishes. My younger daughter can just sit down and play (and does so everytime she walks past the piano).

Yes, I suppose that having to get out the instrument and put it away afterwards can sometimes seem like too much bother. I notice that with the clarinet even though i tend to leave it out on the stand I still have to take it apart and swab it out after playing.

That's true, but I wonder if longer term, the ritual of setting up and putting away an instrument can help with doing more focussed practice. I know that for me, while I'm setting up my sax, sorting out the reed etc I think about what I'm going to practise and what I'm trying to achieve. While I'm packing away I think about what did/didn't work during the session and what I want to practise at the next session. Sometimes I even write it down!

I think you're quite right but not when you're six and a half!

I realise that I have come rather late to this discussion, but I would like to stick up for the poor parent, here.

It's not every parent who is musical or has any musical training. I have recently been looking for a 'new' second hand piano, and have read so many adverts that my brain was reeling. However, the one thing that I noticed everyone who owned an 'old banger' said in their adverts was words to this effect 'Antique piano, needs TLC, suitable for a beginner'.

No why, oh why, would a piano in such condition be suitable for anyone at all...especially a beginner who needs encouragement with a lovely sound and keys which work well, not an old thing bought for a tenner and never likely to see good days again. The wording of the adverts is likely to make the parent who doesn't know think that this piano will do the job.

Having read these replies, I feel quite spoilt. When I got my first piano, I arrived home from school, and there it was in the lounge as a surprise.

I'd like to stick up for parents here. Children are used now to having a go at something and deciding whether they want to stick with it a few months down the line. When your child has started (and finished) Guides/swimming/football/dancing, then you may be nervous about a big investment in a new instrument.

Before I take on a new pupil, I check whether they have anything to play on at home. Usually there has been a piano, but a couple of pupils have started on the keyboard, and after a term or two when they're still really into the piano, have gone out and bought a proper piano. The transition for them is quite tricky as the action feels very heavy for them, but after a couple of weeks they've managed to adjust.

As for myself, I started lessons aged 9 and we didn't have an instrument in the house so I had a cardboard cut-out keyboard and practised on the kitchen table! The school let me practise on the school piano at lunchtimes, and after a month or two my parents forked out on a piano. I tell my pupils they're lucky if they have a keyboard to start with compared to my bit of card !!

Thanks

Karen

One of my young pupils who came today has been complaining for the last couple of weeks about her piano at home. She says she cannot tell if she is playing correctly or not as if she plays what she thinks are the right notes on the keyboard the music comes out sounding wrong, and if she plays it to sound right (more or less!) she is using the wrong keys and the wrong fingering. The piano certainly needs tuning - she tells me it hasn't been done for ages and she keeps asking her mum to have it done. I asked if there might be a piano at school that she could use, but she is a discerning young lady and hates playing the school piano (she tok part in a concert there recently) because she says it sounds and feels dreadful compared with mine - "all light and tinkly, not with lovely deep notes like yours has got". I pointed out that though she might not like the tone at least it would be in tune! I mentioned the problem to her father when he came and gave him the phone number of my piano tuner. I know the parents were considering buying a digital piano, and if they aren't prepared to keep the acoustic piano in good order (I know this is an old one and possibly not very good) this would be much better than the child struggling with what she has got. She's very keen and plays well - it must be so discouraging.

I've just noticed this thread has been updated again!

That's good timing, as the pupil I was talking about originally has recently been given a new digital piano for her birthday

She was managing to make progress before, even with the funny keyboard - so now she's flying! I'm so pleased, and I can really hear a difference this past few weeks.

The piano I started on was very old, and went out of tune quickly. I coped with it until grade 6/7, and then saved up for a brand new one - the one I still have.

I was sad to see the old one go though.. You get used to things - and it had character! When we finally moved it, we discovered evidence of resident mice... I thought the pedals were a bit squeaky...

xxx