For an exam a few years ago I played Mussorgsky's "Une larme". This has a lot of pedalling, and I got into the habit, when practicing, of playing the final chord with pedal, and then lifting my fingers and allowing the chord to sustain with pedal only, terminating the sound by raising the pedal. My teacher had major conniptions - so I had to revise my style and physically hold the notes down, releasing fingers and pedal simultaneously. I couldn't hear any difference, but she could. Or said she could.

Thoughts?

Edward

I do that too

- I can't tell the difference and I'm generally reaching for my cup of tea before the final note has ended.

Maybe it depends on the piano! I'm not sure that I could tell the difference either, aurally, but it somehow looks more professional to come off both together if you have an audience. The other way round - i.e. adding some pedalling to individual detached chords that you want to remain detached - that does make a definite difference, as the pedal adds more resonance - but your foot needs to go down and up exactly with your fingers.

I never notice any difference in sound, but I think it is more a visual thing. When you release the fingers and pedal together, it makes it more obviouse to your audience that your piece has finished. However when you release your hands early, for an audiance that can be a sign that your piece is finished, and they start the applause before your last note ended. It also can look a little lazy to release your hand before the pedal, like the last note isn't that important and the performer has stopped performing before the music has ended. I hope this makes any sense.

The only time I really do that is at the end of a covenant hymn during which everyone shakes hands and the minister is usually hovering nearby at the end to shake my hand.

As a visual thing it's good to keep your hands there until you've finished which is when the last note stops sounding (or even slightly after if you can get away with it. Think of it as taking control of your audience.... nobody is allowed to move until your body language makes it clear that you have finished. It can be quite q powerful feeling of control.

Yes, that's exactly it for me - keep the mood going until the very end.
Holding it with just the pedal is fine for casual playing but not so appropriate for performance situations.

The idea is to lift your fingers from pressing the keys down so that to all intents and purposes to an audience it seems that your fingers are still playing the notes. You can then use the pedal to very gently stop the sound. You may find with some pianos that 'wiggling' the pedal up and down ever so slightly as you lift it up helps in the gradual decay of sound.

Using the pedal in this way to end the sound is much more appropriate for e.g. quiet pieces when the sound needs to decay rather than stop abruptly. You don't need to jerk your hands off the keys when finished playing to announce you've finished the piece.

You should certainly hold the notes down for the actual duration of the note writtn, and come off the pedal at the same time. Some people hold last notes far too long, particularly organists !

I can't comment on organists, but I wonder why you think that it's important to "hold the notes down for the actual duration of the note written". After all, if there is no difference in sound....

Edward

If you bring them both off together you get a tidy end to the sound. If however you take the fingers up a fraction before the pedal and then ease the foot up gently, it allows the dampers to soften their damping action instead of stopping the sound dead which gives a more gradual end to the sound......

I have been taught to hold the notes down as well as the pedal at the end of a piece - the last note is just as important as the rest and it forces you to keep the concentration right until the very end! Though during practice I'm just like sneekymum and sat with a cuppa in my hands listening to the notes dying away...

I'm a cruddy pianist so this is just from a non-expert point of view, but surely it'd depend on the piece?

Visually, yes maybe it looks best to have your fingers still touching the keys, but soundwise I'd've thought what technique you use to end the sound would depend on the pieces and what effect you wanted?

The opinions here are quite interesting. My teacher actually really dislikes it when I hold the pedal longer than I hold my fingers on the keys. She'd much rather prefer I let the pedal go before I even let the my hands off the keys; that or have them off at the same time.

No, never never. I used to do this, until i got corrected. It isnt actually the physical part of it, but musically, you have to keep the feeling there until you release it, which means fingers+pedal. You'll find that subconsciously, even if its at the end, it will make a difference, it'll give a greater sense of conclusion.

Yes , my teacher did the same.

In theory there's absolutely no difference between the two in terms of sound: pressing the sustain pedal holds all the dampers off the strings; pressing the sustain pedal and holding the chord holds all the dampers off the strings.... So if someone says they can hear a difference, there isn't a physical difference in sound produced so I'd doubt it . The only difference in sound is, as CD rightly points out, using the pedal one has slightly more control over the velocity with which the dampers kill the resonance and can make it slightly more gentle. Indeed some more modern pieces do have the explicit instruction to hold the notes with the pedal at the end of the piece: explicitly marked pedaling with a whole bar rest at the end and the direction to lift the pedal after the rest.

Holding the chord but not holding the pedal does, of course, have a very different effect, as the other strings don't resonate freely.

It's mostly down to the visual impact I think, I once read here someone saying it looks like the pianist can't be bothered to finish the piece if they take their hands off first. I found this slightly objectional as it is a slight habit of mine but of course it could be interpreted that way. Anyway, I think it looks better if the hands stay on but again that's looks better, not sounds better.

You can still have the feeling there even if the fingers are released slightly before the pedal, in order to control pedal release as the feeling is an inner mental thing, and you need to keep the emotion and concentration going until a few seconds after the piece has ended, particularly if it's a slow piece......the piece never ends with the final note - it actually ends slightly afterwards.........

Others have discussed the visual aspect but the aural aspect is also worth considering. I think this can be quite important as a chord played after the pedal is pressed will be a lot richer due to the harmonics and resonance of all the strings instead of just those 5 or 6 of the chord. This can end in a grander sound - fine for Rondo Alla Truca and such like pieces - but this is obviously less intimate and should not really be used in a piece like a Chopin Nocturne.

[quote name='chocolatedog' date='Oct 12 2006, 10:38 AM' post='406279']

You can still have the feeling there even if the fingers are released slightly before the pedal, in order to control pedal release as the feeling is an inner mental thing, and you need to keep the emotion and concentration going until a few seconds after the piece has ended, particularly if it's a slow piece......the piece never ends with the final note - it actually ends slightly afterwards.........
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Exactly why you should leave your fingers on the keys. I mean feeling as in musical feeling, not the physical sound- if you take your fingers off, you automatically relax your mind and concentration, and you shouldnt do that until the very end. Of course the piece ends with the final note, whether it may be definate or fading away. Do you imply that one should always end the piece with pedal and no fingers?

[quote name='Boo Radley' date='Oct 12 2006, 12:11 PM' post='406312']

[/quote]
Others have discussed the visual aspect but the aural aspect is also worth considering. I think this can be quite important as a chord played after the pedal is pressed will be a lot richer due to the harmonics and resonance of all the strings instead of just those 5 or 6 of the chord. This can end in a grander sound - fine for Rondo Alla Truca and such like pieces - but this is obviously less intimate and should not really be used in a piece like a Chopin Nocturne.
[/quote]

Did you say that you press the pedal before your fingers go down? That hardly ever happens, let alone with a cadence chord.

You don't "automatically" relax your mind and concentration - any more than people automatically don't lose concentration if they hold on to the keys. Whether one keeps the feeling and musicality going till the very end of the performance or not has a lot more to it than whether one keeps one's fingers on the keys or not.

Perhaps just rest your fingers on the keys at the end, instead of actually holding them down?

I end pieces like that with pedal only

I was reading the Louis Kentner "Yehudi Menuhin" guide, and was interested to read what he had to say about ending pieces and the pedal. Unfortunately I can't lay my hands on the book right this instant but I know I marked the page. I was interested to note that, unless my memory deceives me, he considered ending a piece with the pedal was an acceptable option, if one wanted a certain effect.

When I lay my hands on the book again I'll try and dig out some relevant quotes!