I've just started Bach's prelude and fugue no 7 ( Well Tempered Clavier).

Different point of views whether to pedal or not...
What do you think?

(I'm talking about Bach in general)

Have a look here:

http://forums.abrsm.org/index.php?showtopic=14476

Many fastidious Bachians eschew all pedal for Bach. Some of them even eschew the piano. Wanda Landowska famously remarked "You play Bach your way, and I'll play Bach his way". Since you're playing on a non-Baroque instrument, I think you can use your imagination and discretion. But I think trying to "romanticise" Bach is often a mistake, even when the music is, apparently, achingly romantic. I'm thinking of Myra Hess' version of "Jesu Joy of Man's Desiring".

Edward

If you're not going for the really stylistic harpischord-esque approach to it, I can't see why not.

Glen Gould made an amazing use of pedal for Bach Preludes and Fugues

Does anyone have any thoughts specifically about the second movement of the Italian Concerto? I struggled with this in the past and never made a good job of it. The conclusion that I came to was not to pedal, but only to consider playing it in an extremely accoustic room!

My piano teacher told me the harpsichord didn't have pedals but the piano is not the harpsichord. If you like it, add it. Discretion is always the key.

I don't think Wanda Landowska was playing proper harpsichords.... Great big metal-framed, leather plectrum, steel-strung multi-pedalled monstrous Pleyels, brrrr.

Our kids' piano teacher always advocated learning to play pieces without the sustaining pedal, but as an academic exercise - also because if the pedal is faulty, it is useful to be able to do so! She would then add pedalling back in, and in this way, you really do end up using it fairly sparingly.
The second movement of the Italian Concerto I would pedal for the big jumps but I try to avoid it too much otherwise - as Neil says, the piano is not a harpsichord, so why not use what it has?

If the pedal on a piano is faulty I'm not playing it.

Ooh, someone's being a negative Nancy .

The real art of pedalling Baroque and Classical music is that you shouldn't really be able to tell it's there.......discretion is the key

Good point!

I like that way of thinking, CD.
Just been having a chat with my husband about this one - he's pointed out that on a harpsichord with a 4' choir of strings, and on some single-manual harpsichords an unengaged 8' register, the non-playing strings will be undamped or only partially damped, so that you get a degree of sympathetic resonance, which helps to sustain the sound. Dampers on a piano are so efficient that it can easily sound rather deadened without the pedal - so that would make use of the sustaining pedal attractive even when playing Bach...but still in moderation, at any rate for my tastes!

If you pedal, perhaps the examinors (if you're planning to take exams) will ask you why you are doing so.
I think you should prepare a sensible answer.. just in case.

bless you!!! Nasty cold you've got there.......

I've not played this particular piece, but I'd say for Bach in general I don't tend to pedal. I played the Allemande from the Partita no.4 (i think ) for my grade 8 and I personally felt that it actually sounded better without pedal. A lot of Bach has many interweaving melodies, the beauty of which can sometimes be lost if overpedaled.



That said, I always use it for Prelude no.1 I suppose its down to opinion really...

Quite right; well, he would be, naturally .

If I disengage the 8' and 4' register on the lower manual and play on the upper manual (fixed 8') the sympathetic resonance is too effective for it's own good. Normally I have the 4' register disengaged, and it does provide a lovely warmth, that I do miss when the harpsichord starts to slip out of tune and the frequencies don't match up.



Half pedalling is a useful skill in Bach - to make the dampers dampen slightly less, covering up difficult-to-play-legato passages .

Is it good to half pedal in Mozart? I always muck it up when trying to use the pedal.

Nothing worse than a slipped 4' choir, in particular, is there? Talk about sour sound....




That's interesting - not something I've tried. Must remember to give that a go when our harpsichord is not being tuned, as it is now...

I've always believed that discretion is the key too

YAP- Thank's for the link , a very useful thread.

Noodelz- I do half pedal in Mozart.

Is there an exact skill to half pedalling? Or is it just touching the pedal until the resistance dies away?

Do you mean by turning the screw that is inside the piano, at the bottom, in order that you may physically pedal as normal, but the effect will be lessened?
Does this have the effect of not really pedalling (depending on how much the screw is turned) but, rather, that you're in a more accoustic surroundings? Or have I picked this up entirely wrongly?!

Or do you mean, literally only pushing the pedal down half-way? If so, what do you think of the above idea as a "by the way"?

No way would I want to pedal that!. But a good legato touch, and sensitive phrasing is essential !
Someone once claimed Bach never wrote a good melody, whats wrong with that one? (my other favourite is the f sharp minor prelude in 'Book 2')

Someone once claimed Bach never wrote a good melody. That would be someone with two tin ears, fast asleep at the back of a heavy engineering works, whose music of choice would be The Darkness, I suppose.

Edward

I like it.
*hums melody of the Bach she's currently learning*

It's interesting, ive never liked Bach, but thats probably because ive never been able to play it well. And my teacher says that its because i dont understand his music. But how can you understand it? I find it so hard to identify specific feelings in his music, it seems to all be the same (*i know im going to get a hiding from saying this*).

Not at all - but be prepared for some of us to try and convert you !
I find him so full of life - eg the Gigue from the fifth French suite. The whole suite is pretty varied - try Angela Hewitt or Joanna McGregor.

From a younger pupil's point of view, I have to say that some of the easier dances that appear in the AB exam lists are perhaps not the best introduction. I was bowled over aged 6 by a bit of orchestral Bach - but it was a long time before I enjoyed playing any of his keyboard works.

I find very that few of the younger pupils take easily to Bach, partly because they find his music difficult to play. There often isn't an obvious melody that they will get into their heads quickly. The Minuet from The Little Notebook is a good place to start - or the Musette.

As far as listening and enjoying is concerned - try the Prelude and Fugue in G Major - I THINK I'm thinking of the one in WTC Book 2, but I might be wrong - it's phenomenal stuff! (Short Prelude/very complex fugue.) The more you listen, the better it gets - which points to why Bach is so good to play; it gets more and more interesting as you practise and you don't get sick of it.

I've been recently done a couple of Bach inventions and now started on the 1st Sinfonia. this is leading up to fugues in case you didn't guess.
I find them very hard going. It's just like putting a jigsaw together but without the picture on the box and an awful lot of sky .

Yes, I've done the hands separate bit and even sorted out which line is which but putting it all together is very slow and tedious work.
Still, I suppose it's good for me and one day it might all fall into place in my head.

Sbhoa - I like the jigsaw bit!

Spent half an hour this morning on 2 bars and still looking for the right shaped piece....

Maybe I left it in the box.

Sometimes I think it's best to blunder through the whole thing a few times first to get an idea (however vague) of the overall picture - forgetting seperate practice and minor detail. I like to see a piece coming together in overall layers rather than in little solid pieces. I've no idea whether that's right or wrong - I guess we just all have our own way of practising - but I know I'd throw the towel in sooner if I stuck to just a couple of bars for too long!

Well if you're being a purist then you shouldn't pedal Bach as its not the sound that was orignally intended - given that he was writing for harpsichord/organ.

Personally I like to pedal Prelude from the Well Tempered Clavier because I think it gives a softer and more flowing sound.

Typically Bach!

It IS hard, i just cant play Bach well, but thanks for the suggestions, ill try them.