So anyway, I'm making my way through another of Beethoven's sonata, and there's a trill where I have to play an octave and then trill with my 4th and 5th fingers (right hand of course). And well, I've never encountered such a scenario in my nine years of playing, and I can't do it. My fingers won't lift up at the speed that's necessary. In fact, I've found a lack of control between those two fingers overall.

Is there any...muscle-related reason why this occurs? Or should I ask my piano teacher about specific exercises to work on my ability to trill with my 4th and 5th fingers? I've found my 3rd and 4th finger trill is not as strong as the others either, but it's passable. However, I just can't manage a trill with my 4th and 5th!

The funny part is that I can manage one with my left hand...does this have to do with the fact that I play violin?

I've never really tried a trill with 4th and 5th fingers,
Try these:

http://forums.abrsm.org/index.php?showtopi...2&hl=trills

http://forums.abrsm.org/index.php?showtopi...3&hl=trills

So sorry for not being helpful enough.

Dina x

4th and 5th fingers share the same tendon and so it is probably much more difficult to trill with these two. You need to be very free when trilling. It should be a physically pleasurable experience and if not, it is probably to do with discomfort either in the hand, arm or shoulder.

You could try holding down 4th finger and then very slowly to begin with, playing the key next to it with 5th finger and repeat it several times. Watch how your fingers behave so you can check the movement. A little rotary wrist movement can help too. Perhaps exagerate the movements to begin with so as to encourage freedom. Repeat this the other way around, holding down the 5th finger and then repeating the 4th finger movement on one key. You might find that the 4th will not lift very high. Do not force it....freedom of movement is the key here and also remember to do it slowly first. Maybe do this for a few days and don't be tempted to suddenly try to perfrom the trill at full speed too soon! Remember also to continually check how your hand, arm and shoulder are feeling. Any sign of discomfort, then stop, relax and begin again.

Eventually, the fingers need to be in close contact with the keys as well as the fingers that are resting at the same time but to begin with, lift them fairly high and allow the resting fingers to move high as well to encourage freedom and comfort.

Sometimes allowing your arm to drop to your side as if you were walking along and then shaking quickly in a rotary movement (as if you were shaking water from it) can help as well.

Hope this might help a little.



P.S Which Beethoven sonata are you learning?

I had this problem when I was trying to learn the Hammerklavier Sonata, first movement I think. I remember my teacher asking me to sit at a table with my arm laid on it, palm down very relaxed and making me "will" my ring and little fingers to raise and fall separately. Then he made me look at my hand, palm toward my face and curl these fingers in separately while keeping all the others still. It was quite hard at first.

At the keyboard he made me hold the lower note with my thumb then slowly trill in pulses or four notes a time at first then work on from there. As I remember, anyhow.

Yes, the 4th and 5th fingers are far weaker than the others but you can make them stronger. Have you ever come across the book "Hanon - The Virtuoso Pianist"? It's full of exercises to make fingers stronger and more accurate and efficient and stuff, with the promise that if you practise the exercises properly you'll have awesome piano hands. I've never really had the time or inclination to follow it religiously, but just after doing the first few exercises quite a bit, my fingers have improved a lot. It's really really wearing, if you do them too much you get hand cramps, but I really couldn't recommend this book more, it's made a big difference to me.

Also see the "Trills" thread which is currently on page two of the viva piano forum. A few posts down, Trebor posted a link to a very useful thread from the past.

I reckon most of us are weak at 4th/5th finger trills, you just have to practise, practise, practise. Beethoven must have been good at them, there lots in the Sonatas. Which ones causing trouble ?

From a doctor's point of view, the 4th and 5th meta-carpals are weak because in every day life they rarely get used and the associated muscles and tendons tend to be under utilised.. A good exercise for weak 4th and 5th digits is given in Geoffrey Tankard's scale exercise books "On an Hour a Day". Try some of these but be careful, limit your exercise to a couple of minutes a day (over exercising can cause problems). You will find your strength buliding up very quickly in these fingers.

Thanks everyone for the advice. I've been working on it and I think I'm gaining a little strength already, but I'm still not at speed. Taking it slow though. I do have Hanon...haven't played it for ages though, since I started Czerny. There's actually an exercise for the 4/5 finger trills, so I'll work on it.

My piano teacher says I could just do the 3/4 trill instead of the 4/5 if I want to, but I think it's better to develop the 4/5 fingers now...since I'm going to have to do these trills eventually.

I think wrist movement is very important with helping trills along.
Maybe try leaning on the 5th finger first, with wrist movement away from you ( rest of fingers lifted off keys) and then rotate wrist back down again (fingers back down onto keys). And then repeat slowly until you get the feel of the wrist.

Once this feeling feels a bit more natural, then you don't have to exaggerate it so much and then use fingers as before but think about leaning to the 5th finger on each trill.

Hope I've explained that o.k.