I've been thinking about this issue for some time, but have been reluctant to post it for fear of bringing a storm down on my head. But there's been quite a lot of comment in recent threads about similar issues, so here goes, and if any teachers feel inclined to reply, I would be grateful if you would PLEASE do so in the spirit in which the question is asked.

I'm not a teacher, I'm a fairly mature adult student. I guess the reason I'm interested is because I run a business, and I have clients who pay me to provide them with a service. When I first started learning the clarinet, I viewed my lessons in that light because that was my background - I was paying the teacher to provide me with a service. In other words, I was the client in this scenario, and (ultimately) I called the shots (although hopefully in the nicest possible way). I can feel all the blood pressures rising already, but please understand that at this point, I knew nothing about the music profession or teachers - my experience of music was limited to listening to classical music and attending concerts.

I now understand more about the music profession, partly thanks to the enormously interesting, informative and enlightening conversations in this forum. I like to think I'm a better student as a result, and I have a HUGE respect for my teachers personally and also music teachers as a profession.

But I still puzzle over the teacher/private pupil relationship and whose expectations should be fulfilled. This was highlighted fairly recently by the experience of a friend of mine who wanted to learn to play an instrument from scratch. She doesn't want to do exams, and she doesn't want to play perfectly, she just wants to be able to tinker about playing tunes she likes for her own amusement. A teacher took her on on this basis, and although some aspects of the lessons worked, the teacher sometimes got cross because she wasn't practising in-between lessons. Personally I couldn't understand why she didn't WANT to practise in-between lessons, but, as she said, if she's paying for the lessons, and she's prepared to use up expensive lesson time practising instead of moving on, isn't that her perogative as the "client"?

I can see that the whole issue of pupils' expectations vs teachers' expectations can be a very thorny one. I can see that teachers who know what's best feel frustrated when private pupils want to "do their own thing", whether it's about practising or anything else. Believe me, I have the same frustrations myself when clients think they know best and don't listen to my advice. But ultimately, certainly in my industry and I think in the commercial world generally, it is the client who is paying and at the end of the day, it's their wishes which prevail. This seems to be a completely different perspective to the one in the music profession, where all the indications are that the teachers' wishes should prevail, irrespective of what the (paying) pupil wants (although I would leave young children out of this scenario as obviously they would be too young to make an informed decision).

I should just add that I don't have any issues with my own teachers over this - I think our expectations are the same (particularly since I took noodle's advice over exams!), but it is an area which I puzzle over every time a thread crops up which touches on these issues. Would any teacher like to give me their perspective on this - if anybody is still talking to me Not only would it further enlighten me for my own (and hence my teachers') benefit, but it might help me to explain to my non-practising friend why her teacher got cross with her for not doing what HE wanted instead of what SHE wanted.

(Here goes, I'm going to take the plunge and post it - PLEASE don't shout at me, I'm just trying to learn ... )

Perfectly fair questions, Jazzfan, and perhaps we teachers should ask ourselves more often whether we are providing what our students and potential students want.

Just a few quick thoughts - I have to go out and sing before too long and might have to return to this later.

Perhaps some of the points you raise come down to communication. If we don't talk over what the student wants at the first meeting, we might be in danger of offering a "one size fits all" type of lesson. I normally sit a new pupil down and ask what music they want to play, why they want to learn, etc - but I have to admit I don't ask " are you going to be prepared to practise between lessons?" I guess we shouldn't assume anything!

No doubt you know all the arguments in favour of practising, so I won't list them here.
But one thing I would ask, and it's this --- In your case, does your clients' response / attitude / affect the quality of service you are able to offer? Because I guess some of us (not all) might feel that what they can offer is somewhat compromised if a pupil (for whatever reason) is unable or unwilling to work on aspects of their lessons in between those lessons. In my case, if I am aware that someone hasn't practised, or is currently unable to do so, I do plan things differently. It may be your friend's teacher was caught a bit on one foot and couldn't do the lesson he/she had planned.

I suppose one could argue that if a student is willing to pay for the time, what they do with the lessons is up to them - unless of course they are taking up a place that another student would like and is presently being denied. In that case I suppose it is up to the teacher which pupil is considered more worthwhile - )that perhaps is a different discussion but could be interesting).

A few initial thoughts - which I 've probably expressed rather badly - probably find myself editing later!

Thank you for your response - I found the points you made really valid and would like to think about them so please don't edit them too much!

An interesting question and one I can only speak for myself on, others may have differing views on.

Your question seems to be based from an adult perspective and for adult students. This is a different situation from what many teachers face and whose 'clients' are mostly children/teens who cannot make the same maturity of choice and have not necessarily the 'right' to as they do not pay for their own lessons. The comparison to any service industry is right in some ways and we have a commitment to make sure our teaching is relevant, up-to-date and of sufficiant quality and have had to put in a lot of time, money and effort to get to the standard of teaching, which sometimes can be underestimated.

I have a couple of adult students and there are often weeks where I get a ream of (mostly genuine) excuses. I understand this is part of the arrangement, as long as they are happy to continue paying for expensive practice sessions, this is their perogative. It can be frustrating and can make you feel unsure as a teacher how long they will continue before they work out they are spending a lot of money and not getting much out of it, so will leave you with an empty slot, or annoyed if you had turned someone else away for this student and have wasted time and effort on them.

Sometimes I try not to treat my adult students as seperate entities so everyone gets the same level of focus and I don't think 'oh they haven't practiced, so I'll not bother myself too much'. Perhaps our commitment to our students can cause us to irritated if they aren't putting in the same effort?

Tricky question, and one that definitely depends on the teacher and student in question.

OK - I felt I was thinking on my feet with very little reflection, but I'd like to think about the issues raised too, and will probably post later rather than edit (you could always copy it if you want!)

I would endorse just about everything said by maggiemay, Jazzfan. Admittedly, in other threads I've been guilty of certain outbursts such as we need to get rid of pupils who do not want to toe the teacher line, etc. But those comments were mainly in the context of saving the sanity of the teacher in question. It IS all about communication and if the pupil is not wishing to be entered for examinations for example that can be communicated at the outset so that the teacher can indeed can have a more relaxing series of lessons. I have often regretted missing out on an excellent pupil who loved developing his own style and was on the way to being a fantastic jazz pianist, but whose mother insisted that she didn't want the stress of putting his through exams. It was the general scenario of a late child and a retired (through stress) mother. I had on my waiting list a pupil who wanted to pursue the exam route, so I reluctantly told her I could not accommodate him. I've since learnt that he did not get on with the teacher I recommended, so for all I know he may have stopped altogether. That made me very sad indeed. Not one of my best decisions.

You are obviously a very sensitive young person. The pupils who go to you will be very privileged I'd say. But there's no need to apologise in any way for the issues you raised and I think you'll find a lot of sympathy with your views.

LR

your question seems to be based from an adult perspective and for adult students.

Yes - I took it that it pertained mainly to adults - although your remarking on this raised another question in my mind ..... if a child doesn't practice, unless a fairly genuine reason is forthcoming, or the situation is very temporary, we may blame it on lack of interest.

Of course there may be less freedom of choice over lessons than with an adult - but do we regard practice differently depending on the age of the student?

I think some important issues have been raised here. As far as adult learners are concerned when I am teaching them, their wishes are the most important thing to me and in that light, I will try to guide and teach within the framework they set for themselves.

Adults aften find it very difficult to find practice time especially when they have jobs and families to think about and I certainly would never become heavy-handed towrads a pupil who didn't do as I wanted.

The point in the original post was made that children are a different proposition and I think that is right.

It is important for adult learners to enjoy the experience of their music-making and if we are open to their wishes then that can help us to discover which pathways are available for exploration and learning to take place.

It's also important for the teacher to learn as well!

Yes, I would agree with the points that have been made already.

Adult learners, I feel, are entering into a partnership with the teacher, and they should negotiate together the direction the lessons are taking. I currently teach flute to two adults who have rather differing ideas about what they want to do. One is adamant she doesn't want to take exams, having taken some early grades on clarinet and oboe in her youth and not enjoyed the experience. The other is a retired lady who really wants to take exams, as she saw her children go through the process and wants to do the same. Both are progressing steadily, and seem to be happy with what they are achieving.

I also try to give my younger learners as much autonomy as possible, although some hate being asked their opinion, or given too much choice, and would really like me to tell them what to do! It's more a personality thing than an age thing: I have recently started teaching a tiny girl who had been learning for a term before she started with me, who has already asked me to teach her a couple of notes that the book she's using doesn't cover until later on, and, who after I'd written her a short tune to use the new note, asked me this week to 'write me another piece this week, please'.

One thing that might colour my attitude towards teaching is that I have a teaching certificate in post-compulsory (ie post-16) education, and therefore all my teacher training was geared towards the teaching of adults.

From an adult student point of view I'm afraid I wouldn't have much of an answer to Maggiemay's questions about what I want to play and why I want to learn.
I just know that I want to play piano and I want to do as well as I am able and this has always been how it is with me. I am completely happy for my teacher to make the decisions about what I need to play to help me to progress (even if I don't always like the choices too much).
I think that Andante's comment about it being a personality thing is good.

From a teacher point of view I think that if someone has stronger views on what hey want to do and what they don't it can be possible to accomodate this or if it's not then maybe it's best to suggest trying another teacher who can/will.
I think that there are some things you can manage better than others.
I had an adult male student who just wanted to be able to play a few things for his own amusement. He very quickly cracked the 'code' of reading music but was not too quick at note naming. That was fine, he could work out the starting notes and read reasonably well by interval recogntition.
On the other hand a teeanage boy chose to totally ignore anything I taught him about consistent fingering and wanted to do his own thing all the time.... I pointed out that this was actually a waste of time and money.
I think that teachers will all have different things that they will and won't accomodate.

I think that forgetting or omitting to bring up the issue of practice is something we could think about.
Some people just don't realise that they are likely to grind to a halt fairly quickly without some work between lessons. Adults are just as likely to think that learning an instrument is a good idea if only they didn't have to put in any effort as children (my own daugther realised that she felt this way when she was about 12). Not necessarily a complete lack of interest, more a lack of sufficient motivation.

I am answering this without reading absoluely all the posts, and I hope you will forgive me for that; I am pushed for time and will come back later. My immediate response is that where children are comcerned, I am loathe to continue accepting money from a trusting parent when little or no progress has been made through lack of practice. Adults are a slightly different matter, as they are under different pressures, and, as such, I feel they are more in a position to call the shots with regard to how to spend that time for which they have paid.

I am like you sbhoa. I just know I have always wanted to play the oboe and am happy to let my teacher lead the way. He has always encouraged me to bring in things I would like to play and occasionally I do but most of the repertoire I have learnt has been his choice.

That said, he does not give me precise practice objectives every week. By that I mean he told me what an ideal practice session consisted of (long notes, scales, technical exercises, pieces) and I have a scale book and a number of books of exercices and studies and I decide each day what I am going to play. In my lessons we always start with a random scale and an arpeggio (I never know in advance which one). Occasionally I will have a precise question linked to a problem I came across during the week with one of the exercises but otherwise I don't usually play them in the lessons. We spend most of the lesson working on whichever piece I am playing and he tends to teach technique through the pieces. (In fact I think I am the only one of his pupils who demands exercises and I have never told him how many I play!)

I usually practise for an hour a day five days a week. I do sometimes have periods (about once every three or four months) when I am away from home almost all week and can't practise but I always know this in advance and have always told him when I won't be able to practise and it has never been a problem.

Do your clients pay you for your expertise, or to pander to their whims?

b

From an adult student point of view I'm afraid I wouldn't have much of an answer to Maggiemay's questions about what I want to play and why I want to learn.
I wouldn't regard that as a problem at all - it's not my intention to put people on the spot. But if they have ideas about what they want to do, I'd like to hear them.

Some very interesting questions here-this is a bit of a quick answer asI haven't had time to read all the posts thoroughly. I just wanted to say that I teach a lot of adult students, and agree the key is honesty here-and developing a really good rapport so this happens. My experience of teaching adults is that they are especially conscious of the fact that they're the ones paying for my time and experience. Every one of my adult students wants me to do everything I can to help them improve their playing-this is what they're paying me for -and this includes my giving clear direction and practice aims. I do have two adults who don't have enough time for practice due to study and jobs-in many weeks it's no time- we've discussed this, and can happily spend a lesson on sight reading and technique, or catching up on pieces if they've had an especially heavy week of other committments. They also accept it does mean progress will be much slower if this is more frequently occuring than not.

It's exactly the same as paying a private doctor, lawyer, fitness coach or any other profession-in that you're paying for their training , advice and expertise. I believe in working as a partnership with all students-this also means them putting in the time during the week -or mutually agreeing that their practice time is limited, and aims have to be tailored to suit this. Having made the decision to have lessons, and agree with what we're aiming for, I know my adults expect me to take a lead-this is what they're paying me for- in order to help them.

I have always found it very difficult to try to teach pupils, adults or children, who do not want to practise between lessons. I used to teach a husband and wife together a few years ago. He could not really sing at all when he started and she could, but with a really old wobbly and frail voice. He learnt to sing in tune and with a very pleasant tone but she was quite happy with her voice and did not want to alter it. (I think that she thought that she sounded like a grand opera singer!) They used to do some work on exercises in their lessons but really just wanted to sing songs once a week. This I could have coped with, but they hardly ever liked my choice of songs for them. Folk songs were out because of the "silly, silly words" songs in any language other than standard English were out, (I tried them with "O can you sew cushions" once and they told me that they didn't do foreign songs!!!) and we ended up with about five songs that they would sing each week. I really wanted the husband to enter for his grade one but he was not interested. I made an excuse and stopped the lessons eventually, but this continued for around two years. I am not sure what either of them gained but they always say how much they loved their lessons. Now I only teach adults who can and will do at least some work between lessons, and they always make good progress and are so much more satisfying to work with.

I think there exist some older "students" who don't really want to be students as such, and who don't care about making measureable progress. They are simply looking for an outlet to enjoy music on a weekly basis. The question, of course, is whether the teacher is prepared to go along with this! In this type of scenario, I often get a sense of mild panic as the "lesson" approaches, thinking "What on earth am I going to do with him/her this week?"

On a different (but similar) vein, I have a young boy with various learning difficulties. His parents wanted him to stop lessons but he was very upset at this idea as he loves to come along. We make very little progress, and all I can really do each week is teach another few notes - which will be largely forgotten the following week. He can play a few simple things by rote, but will never progress beyond this. My problem here is maintaining my enthusiasm - and occasionally stopping myself from banging my head off the piano - my failing, I know.

First, a good question not something to be worried about asking . A few thoughts regarding this matter (I'm trying to keep it short so aplogies if it appears abrupt):

• Private teachers are often in the job because of the love of it, they have sacrificed earning loads of money to do something that they love, so want to take on pupils that they enjoy teaching. I am not, of course suggesting that they don't need the money, but unlike industry they have shown that they to a certain extent put their happiness in slightly higher regard than their money earning. Being self employed, if they are not desperate for money, they can chose to teach people they enjoy teaching. So to a certain extent can do things more on their terms. I hope I worded that okay, I'm not in anyway trying to imply it's a hobby not a job; just that teachers don't tend to be people who will do anything for the money.
• The teachers have a reputation that they need to keep up for business, if a lot of their pupils are seen to be playing very badly they may get fewer in the future; yet I'm sure no teacher would think it's good for the pupil to hide a pupil because they weren't very good for shame.
• It also depends on the teacher, a teacher with a full waiting list can, and may as well, be picky about which pupils to teach, in effect it is their time that is more valuable and people want their services. This does not necessarily have to be on the grounds of ability; more on the grounds of what sort of pupil they enjoy teaching (e.g. adults only, children only, practisers only etc.). A teacher struggling to get pupils will have to take on anyone, on whatever terms the person wants if they're desperate for the money.
• There's some aspect of person in charge, person who does what they're told, in a teacher-pupil relationship, this probably spills over into it.
• I think the key point is though, unlike in other things, it is the teacher that knows what is best for the pupil in the long run to get to their goal so there has to be some mutual agreement with an input from the teacher. It's okay to just play pieces, but surely the goal of someone would be to be able to learn pieces more efficiently, rather than slogging at each one as if one was starting from scratch each time (even if the pupil doesn't realise this is their goal....).

It all comes down to whether the teacher is willing to deal with the pupils on those terms, there are many private teachers who don't need the money as much as they'd dislike to teach the pupil ; and many skilled ones who, even if they do need the money, are skilled enough to convince the pupils to come on their terms.... Certainly not all teachers are flexible, either because they don't want/need to be; or they don't realise they're not. If one wants flexibility I guess one has to pick a teacher that is willing to give that. The reason someone's teacher has to nag them to practise is that it is really the best way to progress, even if the pupil isn't bothered too much about progress they need to have at least been told this: imagine someone actually decided they did want to improve but had never been told to practise, that would count as the teacher failing to do their job .

It's in some ways like going to see the doctor, you go there with a problem, in this case some symptomns in the other case a learning goal (which teachers should listen to). One doesn't go to the doctor and decide one's own treatment (well some people try ); the same with a teacher, one can prescribe one's goal, but the teacher is the person who knows how to get there....

Just a few thoughts, not particularly well articulated so don't try to read too much into them....

A lot of analogy with doctors here.
Would YOU pay pivately to go to a doctor, or a physiotherapist, etc., and NOT take the medication/do the exercises between consultations? It would be a waste of money and you would get no benefit from your money/time. Neither would you question their expertise and recommendations.
Learning instruments/singing PROPERLY is hard work. What's the point of undertaking it if you are not prepared to do that hard work. If a pupil of mine wasn't making pogress through lack of practice, I would tactfully suggest that it wasn't a priority in their life and therefore a waste of their money and my time. They have to question how badly they want to do it. You cannot learn an instrument for pleasure only (I'm not talking about exams here) if you don't put the work in - if you don't play reasonably well, where's the pleasure in it? There is also no pleasure in teaching someone like this. They might as well move over and make room for someone who IS willing.

I agree AnnC. The problem that I had when teaching (or trying to) teach this couple was that they were the head teachers of the school where I did some part time work and I was giving them the lessons before school started every friday morning as a favour really, and also as a bit of a challenge because the husband told me that no one would be able to teach him to sing. I could not be too rude to them about their lack of practice, although I tried on numerous occasions to get them to do at least some preparation between lessons. If they had been fee paying private pupils it would have been very different

This just made me think of something: if one is playing the instrument for pleasure then one surely must want to practise it: if practising is a chore then one obviously isn't enjoying playing the instrument.... People do say they don't have time for things, but ultimately everyone has some time and if the person enjoys the instrument enough they'll allocate it some time instead of doing something else.

Exactly - I've learnt from personal experience that you always find the time for something you really want to do. It's a question of priorities.

As a parent I would not want my girls to carry on with something that they can't orwon't put effort into. It's ok not to take exams but if you don't practice from one lesson to the next and your not progressing or learning new material it's going to get frustrating..

I can totally understand from a Teachers point of view that they want their pupils to progress and eventually the pupil themselves wil probabaly give up. OK there are times for everyone when they can't make a certain level of committment for whatever reasons but they should at least try.

Probably not to private doctors, but I do know people who get medical advice and then ignore it.


I couldn't agree more - however, again I DO know people who are happy to basically be sight-reading every week and doing no practice. In such a case it depends if the teacher is willing to accomodate that or not.

I agree it's definitely about communication. The student needs to be willing to try and articulate what they want to get out of lessons, the teacher needs to be straight about what's needed to achieve those goals, and then the pupil needs to be honest about whether they can and will put the effort in.

My point above, which my computer wouldn't let me finish, is that as teachers we don't always know what will be required of us till a pupil is already established; it may be not what we had in mind, and not our "forte". This puts us in a difficult position at times as to whether to risk hurting feelings by terminating lessons.

And AP is right that this is not a normal "job". We are doing this largely because it's how we want to spend our time - yet we only have so much time available, which means it is frustrating to be "used" by, say an adult who really never intended to practise or make much progress. Perhaps a questionaire to the potential student as to what their requirements and expectations are would help us decide whether or not to take people on...?

There have been so many good points made so far, and different ways of looking at things. I'd like to put my thoughts together on what I've learnt from it and post back in the next day or so.

As a student, after the initial 'wow I'm learning clarinet' wore off, I did very little practice. But, I kept going, and because I had put the work in at the begining, my technique was sound, and now, I do practice, in and around GCSEs, and have good sight reading skills because of the 2 years or so I did little practice. (it helped that I was rather ahead of the others in my group!) So it's not neseccerily (I know I can't spell!) a complete waste of time.

I tell all my adult pupils that I really look forward to lessons with the ones who practise frequently, but feel a bit gloomy about lessons with the ones who don't. This seems to concentrate their minds a bit, as no one wants their teacher to feel gloomy about their impending arrival.

Violinia

Thanks everybody for your replies, and I'm sorry I've not responded sooner.

I think what comes across, both here and generally, is just how much teachers care about their pupils, and that's why you want us to follow the rulebook, if I can put it that way. It's only by doing that, that we can become the best players that we have the potential to be. Problems seem to arise when students' expectations are actually lower than their teachers', eg petrat's singing couple. I have to admit being able to understand "where they were coming from", as in the past I've had a hobby (calligraphy) which I loved indulging once a week, but I didn't want to make it part of my life, or practise it in-between times, or do little projects to display at local shows (as my teacher wanted). I was quite happy just to spend a couple of hours a week doing the calligraphic equivalent of playing scales or the same pieces over and over again. In many ways calligraphy is very similar to music in that it is utterly absorbing, calls for precise movements together with nuances of expression, and requires enormous talent/skill to do it expertly and professionally. Also like music, it is an activity which many people think is easy, because they don't know enough about it to realise otherwise. Which brings me to my next observation....

With regard to practising, anybody who read the "How often do you practise" thread (the one started on 2 Sept) will know that I have no trouble with this at all. Quite the contrary! But if my teacher had told me when I first started that I would have to devote quite a bit of my time to practising during the week, I would have probably thought "oh no I haven't got time for that" and might not have taken up learning the clarinet at all. The fact that I LOVE practising, all elements of it, is something that has grown on me more and more, at the expense of other aspects of my life (eg my calligraphy class, amongst other things). But I do think, as has been intimated, that adults who know nothing about music cannot possibly imagine how complex it is. Like my friend who didn't feel the urge to practise during the week, it was probably a case of the aspiration to play not being matched by the desire to make the effort to achieve that. Most non-musical adults think (as I did ), that all you have to do is learn the notes and that's it. Even with some of my friends, although they're too kind to say so (!), you can see them thinking, "you've been playing for two years and you're still only at grade 2 - how difficult can it be...." I can't say I blame them, because until I started learning, I had no idea how complex it was. So, I think a lot of adults probably start music lessons with a lot of misconceptions. Some don't take to it, whereas others get addicted and choose to divert some/most/all of their spare time to it! Maybe the answer to this one is not to put people off at the start by telling them how time-consuming it might be, but to propose to have a periodic review when ongoing mutual expectations can be discussed and anomalies resolved, if possible. As has been said, in that respect it's all about communication.

Some other good points which were made which hadn't previously occurred to me:

- If a pupil comes to a lesson without having practised what the teacher has expected them to practise, it could throw the lesson plan into sudden disarray, leaving the teacher frustrated at not being able to progress, annoyed at having wasted preparation time and in a quandary as to what to teach for that lesson.

- As far as children are concerned, the point was made that it seems unfair to let trusting parents continue paying when their child isn't progressing as he/she should because of lack of practice, motivation etc.

- If a pupil isn't prepared to practise, and that denotes lack of motivation, the pupil may well discontinue lessons after a while, which leaves the teacher short of a lesson which might otherwise have been taken by a more motivated pupil - frustrating for the teacher and a shame for the pupil who may have been turned away.

- The teacher's reputation is at stake - yes I can see how this could be the case.

Finally, and since maggiemay specifically asked, I don't think the *quality* of my own service is affected by a client's response or attitude, but motivation certainly is and so is the client's own business. So in that respect, it's very much like the music profession.

Anyway, thank you to everybody who has contributed to this thread. As ever it's been very enlightening to hear the perspective from the other side of the fence, and I just hope the other 600-odd people who viewed the thread but didn't contribute weren't teachers who took exception to the question.

My ex flute student, who gave up when lack of practice and lack of progress were compounded by a brace which made it hard to play, was exactly like that - she quite fancied the idea of being able to play well - but wasn't prepared to do the work. Once she found herself able to muddle along, that was fine, and she just couldn't be bothered to go further despite the fact she had a lot of potential

...or, "Why are you having lessons? You already play the......"