This has been my second attempt at mastering this piece, but i just cant get it right! In the first movement, second page, from ''Allegro di molto e con brio'', where it is really fast in the left hand, my left forearm starts to ache after a while, and so does the muscle above my left shoulder blade. I've tried gradually going from a slow speed(or maybe i need to make it more gradual)....does anyone have advice specific to this piece?

Thanks

Yes tremolo octaves can ache after a bit (though its not as bad as the accompaniment to Schuberts song 'Erlkonig' where you play repeated octaves fast , non tremolo!).
I dont think theres an easy answer here except playing slower at first, and then trying to slowly increase speed. If you have a metronome (every pianist should have one), try at about 112 crotchets to the minute for 2/3 days, then 124. then 136, then 148 and finally 160
You might also find it better to sit higher than usual

''Yes tremolo octaves can ache after a bit (though its not as bad as the accompaniment to Schuberts song 'Erlkonig' where you play repeated octaves fast , non tremolo!).''

Ok cool thanks, ill try that, but is it meant to ache?

I think when youve been doing it for a while, it would ache less and less, as your muscles get used to that type of work. But do experiment with different sitting positions, however dont get too close to the piano or you will have trouble at the cross hands bit, and feel too cramped up. for the same reason it can help to play scales sitting a bit further away

I'm not going to advise you to do something that hurts because it's generally a bad idea to say that. Instead do a bit of a thought experiment then you draw your own conclusion.

Suppose you wanted to develop strength and stamina in lifting things up with your arms. Maybe you'd decide to to press-ups, or go to the gym and go on some form of lifting excercise machine (don't know anything about those...). You'd expect that after doing some press-ups your arms would start to ache, if you never did enough to make your arms ache you'd never get any stronger, or gain any more stamina. If, however, you sustained an injury and carried on doing it then you'd probably do some damage.

On the piano to do that tremolo, I know I've seen YAP do it, you do need stamina and strength in the left arm/hand/wrist. Therefore if you want to gain that stamina you need to do the exercise: in this case playing the tremolo. You need to learn to use the right muscles and relax, this only usually happens when the wrong muscles are tired so can't tense anymore, eventually your brain gets the hang of it.

So I can answer yes it's normal to get tired and for your arm to ache (although note I do state that all pain is normal); but whether you want to persevere with it and continue is up to you. If you have a teacher to show you how to practise it that might help you be a bit more certain you're doing the right thing and not injuring yourself .

I sympathise as I had this problem myself. I managed to get over it by relaxing more, I can't really add anything to everyone else's advice.

Wish I could play it now but unfortunately my boobs get in the way

The best advice I got from a fellow teacher was this:

"Playing this movement is all about developing the stamina to cope with it on a modern piano; a modern piano action is much heavier that in Beethoven's day. I am certain that Beethoven would have composed this piece differently had his piano been as heavy to play as ours.

The movement needs practising slowly for many weeks, even months. Players need to be acutely aware of their posture. Straight spine; upper arm muscles doing all the work of supporting the arms; wrists and fingers only do enough work to stop the hands falling off the keyboard.

Muscles aching through being tired is one thing, but that above the shoulder thing sounds like bad news. Players need to make sure that they do not clamp their jaws or tighten their shoulders - tension here will quickly transmit down to the wrists.

Play slowly and with small finger movements and a little wrist rotation. Play softly - don't go for volume until the stamina improves. The smaller the movements, the less tension arises and stamina improves without pain. Playing the piano is not supposed to hurt; we are doing something wrong when it does. Be patient.

Get an expert to watch you play. I recently did this for a young pianist and flautist whose neck and upper back were hurting unbearably after just a few minutes playing. This young lady sat with a straight spine but with her head leaning forward - putting a lot of strain onto the muscles. My guess is she sat in that position at a school desk as well. An osteopath confirmed that this was causing the pain. With manipulation from him and an adjustment of the girl's head position, the pain has disappeared"

I contacted them as I was really concerned that by experiencing pain playing the tremelos you might develop a wrist injury.

At college I saw the ugly side of music training where poeple get hurt through over practice and by not heeded the warning signs.

I know and understand pain - I suffer from fibromyalgia. As a result I don't want anyone to go though unnecessary suffering.

Gosh jod. Some really interesting and very very important points there.

So often I am telling my pupils to relax. It is so painful to watch sometimes, as they play their piece they have been practising, determined to get it right! Sometimes I just make them stop, take a breath, put hands back on keys...bit of breathing yoga style down to their fingers, and then we start again.

Don't know if I am doing the right thing when I do that, but sounds like it is an incredibly important part of being a pianist.

Very interesting point about the type of piano these composers worked with and what we are trying to do on modern day pianos!

Thank you. All us pianists owe you one.

That sounds great Mitch. I do a lot of pilates - it helps with the fibromyalgia, and I've learnt a lot about what to watch for when people tense up. Encorporating aspects of Yoga to help with relaxation and posture sounds very interesting and the right sort of direction to go.

Oh Good.

Actually, a few years ago, I got very bad RSI and went to the hospital for X rays, the lot, as it was getting to be quite a problem. On hindsight, it was at a time when I had started to play much more piano after a long break ( well, break from technically challenging pieces).

I never put the two together until now.