i am doing my flute grade 8 in december and after that i am going to start dip straight away because i am going to go to music college in september hopefully and i need to start teaching so it would be good if i can have something after my name.
so i think i should do it in june, how long did you take from grade 8 to dip?
btw, the list on atcl is rather boring, am i allow to choose pieces from the dipabrsm list?
i want to do poulenc sonata + a mozart concerto in D + some baroque and some romantic. any suggestions?

I've not done grade 8 yet, doing it at the same time as you but I will give my advice.

Firstly, there is a HUGE step between grade 8 and a diploma, it is no grade 9.

Take the Poulenc, I presume you're doing it for grade 8? Say you perform it in grade exam and get 28-30. A very good mark. However, the same performance in a diploma exam and frankly, you'll be laughed at, it's a completely new level.

For Music college, they only ask grade 8 distinction or for some, below that. I am sure they'd much rather you did very well at grade 8, and worked hard on technique and improving your flute playing, than rushing to get to diploma standard which will cause more harm, and potentially more anguish than good.

Isn't the ATCL, a Trinity exam or a Guildhall exam? At least, not an AB exam? Surely if that is the case, then you cannot pick which pieces you want to do from different exam boards.

So to sum up, first concentrate on your grade 8, get your scales/sightreading/aural and finally pieces secure. Get a good mark in that which will be a helpful stepping stone to going to music college. At any rate, many want you to be at grade 8 distinction standard, you don't actually have to do the exam.

I think what you're trying to do is unwise...

PS - I presume you mean a performance diploma. I would say that, although it might open another can on worms, you should be totally secure and confident in your own playing, before you start teaching.

PPS - Life isn't a race, it doesn't matter how long it takes you for Grade 8 to dip.

Not necessarily. If you got 30 at grade 8, it represents near-perfection. What's wrong with that at diploma level?


There is much more "own choice" scope in the Trinity diplomas. The trick is picking stuff which is of the "correct" difficulty. Always a risk when picking pieces that are not on the prescribed list. For this student I would recommend they comb the Trinity grade lists carefully and ensure any pieces chosen are not lurking somewhere in the grade 6-8 region. You'll be surprised... (Trinity diploma exam rubric specifically precludes any Diploma candidate from playing pieces that already appear on a grade list...)


It's all a matter of personal drive. Some might say it's not important to get into Oxford or Cambridge when one could go to Plymouth or Portsmouth, for example. Who is to judge?

Yes, that's true, but what I was trying to say is you can't compare a grade 8 and diploma peformance in the same light. For grade 8, you could get a distinction mark in the pieces with a few technical fluffs, but surely at diploma, the marking is even more focused and strict?



Ah, ok, I didn' know that


I suppose, but getting successfully across the grade 8 to diploma gap in such a short space of time to get a better chance of getting into music college, rather than becoming a better player overall, is surely worse than taking your time?

Hi PianoandFlute

I did my Grade 8 in March 2004 and my ATCL in December 2004 - a gap of 9 months.

So yes, it can be done in a short time. But quite frankly it I had to work like stink to make that happen. ATCL isn't an easy diploma - there's no such thing as an easy diploma.

As MrBouffant pointed out, TrinityGuildhall, who run the ATCL diploma, allow a free choice in putting together your programme, subject to certain constraints:
You have to show a wide range of styles, periods and techniques.
You have to be sure that nothing you play appears on one of their grade exam lists.
You have to get the Chief Examiner's approval for your choices if they are not on the ATCL repertoire lists.

Who can say. I am not a Diploma Examiner, but I know for a fact you can have fluffs in a Diploma exam. The marking is of course different, but can you define "strict" ?

Are the two mutually exclusive? The one thing that concerns me about the original poster is this cry for help. To me the diploma student is characterised by their ability to understand their instrument, the repertoire and make informed choices for diploma recital programmes. Those moving straight in from grade 8 tend to be looking for someone to tell them what to do. This can be an indicator of someone who might benefit from some wider research and experience, IMHO...

Well, for instance, the Poulenc 1st movement from the flute sonata. It has some particularly evil double tonguing. For grade 8, you could get a good mark if you mes it up, but for diploma they are going to expect crisp articulation, as standard! They won't accept anything less. Their marking is more finely tuned, you won't be allowed to get away with things you would have been able to for grade 8. Grade 8 is the top amateur qualification, a diploma represents a professional qualification, big differences there.

Yes, they could benefit from reseach etc but their playing would have to improve very quickly too. You can't pass a diploma by having a wide theoretical knowldge but grade 8 performance skills.

Certainly, my recollection of those 9 months were that I worked incredibly hard to improve my technique, and my stagecraft and performance skills - the latter were being specifically tested at ATCL for the first time. And while I got a distinction at Grade 8, I got a pass at ATCL, and had some far from flattering comments on the technical aspects of my singing.

Also writing programme notes was something pretty daunting when I'd never done it before.

But if the original poster feels that they can move up that level in the available time, then good luck to them.

No, but you can pass Grade 8 by having diploma-level performance skills. Surely whether one can pass ATCL six months after Grade 8 depends on one's starting point, and how much knowledge one is prepared to put in to bridge the gap in the meantime. For example, jo.clarinet passed her Dip just four years after first picking up a clarinet, but she had an awful lot of background knowledge and musical awareness before she even contemplated buying her first clarinet, and was (indeed, still is) completely smitten by the instrument from the outset, so practise was never a chore.

I've not examined the ATCL regulations or mark scheme in any great depth, but would guess that they're broadly similar to the AB diplomas - whilst one needs to be technically secure, what's of paramount importance is the musicality of it all; if a piece is a sad lament, the examiners should be weeping (for all the right reasons!) at the end of it. Even the most celebrated musicians don't get everything right all the time. There are numerous examples of pianists whose performances are littered with wrong notes, but they really take you on an emotional journey through the work. An occasionaly wrong note or slip in articulation doesn't matter.

pianoandflute, my inclination would be to delay the ATCL unless you absolutely have to have it for music college. As various posters have already pointed out, there's a substantial leap between Grade 8 and a diploma. Are you confident that in eight months from now you'll have reached diploma standard, bearing in mind that you'll also have your A-levels in the meantime? If so, go for it, but otherwise, take your time and enjoy the journey .

I was presuming the original poster was at grade 8 standard, but yes, I agree.

I'll bow out of this thread, I seem to be stepping on peoples' toes and can't express myself in the way I want.

Good luck to the original poster

Just my 2p's worth!

I don't see the harm in firing straight ahead from Grade 8 to diploma. (I did it; I was choosing pieces before I even did my Grade 8.) If you've done well at Grade 8, you'll be on a roll - well into the practice routine and feeling confident. It does seem like a short time between the two, but only you know if you can do it, and how quick a learner you are! If you don't mind risking the money, just go for it, and if you don't pass first time, then at least you have the benefit of the examiners' report to work from.

Good luck, and happy practising!

As others have said, if you're doing grade 8 and are confident that you're already diploma standard when you're doing it then you won't have a problem. If, however, you're simply a 'good solid grade 8' then it's probably a good idea to wait a while. By all means start learning the repertoire, it's all valuable experience anyway, then decide at the time of the entry date whether or not you're ready. If you're worried about not passing, maybe you could get a consultation lesson with someone who is also a diploma examiner or music college professor/examiner.

One important thing to remember in all this is that you don't need to have a dipABRSM in order to teach: anyone can do it. Another thing that it may be worth you considering is dipABRSM teaching if that's what you're interested in, the playing standard jump would no longer be a problem. That, of course, assumes you know about teaching .

My teacher had originally suggested an attempt at a diploma after I did grade 7, but because grade 8 is a prerequisite for the ABRSM dip, I opted to do grade 8 first, in summer 2005. I did well, and then embarked on dip repertoire, ironically opting for ATCL Recital in the end (which didn't need the grade 8 anyway)because I preferred the syllabus pieces. It still took me a year get the Recital pieces up to scratch after that, though in my defence I only practise about forty minutes to an hour, four or five days a week, thanks to Life, the Universe and Everything. So - I did take a year between the two, though in the view of my teacher may well have been pretty much at dip standard when doing grade 8. The ATCL result was better than I could ever have hoped or dreamed...I do think it is best not to rush, but if your teacher thinks you will be ready, go for it.

thanks for all the replies. i am going to ask my teacher to phone up trinity and get the dip syllabus start trying pieces and writing promgramme notes.

You can get the syllabus yourself, online. Look here for the basics, then follow links to the syllabus proper in the top right hand corner. (pdf file).
You will also need to follow the relevant links from here to check up on the grade exams if you should decide to go outwith the dip syllabus. I also used the dipABRSM syllabus for inspiration, but preferred what Trinity was asking in the end anyway.
The rest of the exam regulations are also in the pdf file, in great detail- it is worth taking a bit of time to read them through. I did, several times, and still nearly landed in the soup over piece timings.

thank you for the links, it is saving me lots of times.

I was just wondering if there was a lower age limit to take ABRSM performance diploma?

I'm not planning on rushing - I'm 13 and just finished grade 8.

I'm going to spend awhile working on a variety of repetoire and cementing my technique and all those things but I was thinking of aiming for 2008, which will be the year before my A levels and theoretically a lighter school year

there is no age limit for performance dip but you need to be 18 if you do teaching dip.

So in short, don't bother with diplomas until music college

Thought you were doing ATCL next May?

The people who I know who have attended music colleges have all said that their teachers never encouraged them to take diploma exams, after all, you'd leave with a graduate diploma anyway. Am I assuming that things have changed these days, since conservatoires can now award degrees?

I'm sure I've read elsewhere of conservatoire students being encouraged to do diploma exams as well, in order to get used to playing under pressure...

One would think it would make sense.... but then again, it's academia...

Yes I suppose that would be a good enough reason for taking them.