Hi everyone

So many members of these forums are jazz enthusiasts, but jazz covers so many different styles. When we say we like jazz, what do we mean? Modern jazz, smooth jazz, cool jazz, Cuban jazz, New Orleans jazz ....?
Personally, as it says in my signature, I like my jazz upbeat and straight off the streets of 1920s/30s New Orleans. Although it's a toss up between New Orleans jazz and swing jazz.

But what sort of jazz does everyone else think of when you say you like "jazz"?

Wow, that's opened up a whole can of worms...the "but is it jazz?" question. Can't really do it justice at the moment 'cause I'm off to my jazz class, where, coincidentally we're working on ska and latin tunes but I will return at some point over the weekend to give you my considered opinion. My brief opinion is that jazz covers everything you list and more...

well. It varies from 12-bar blues to just anything...

This is what Wikipedia has to say... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jazz

I think I probably didn't word my first post very well (I see I did it quite late at night, that's my excuse anyway .... )

What I was really wondering was, what type of jazz do forumites as individuals like? TSax, for instance, your signature says you're passionate about jazz - but what sort of jazz are you passionate about? What sort of jazz is anybody else passionate about? I'm just curious about what other forumites like (and also maybe I would see in a different light the forms of jazz that I'm not currently keen on ....)

The Wikipedia site is tremendously informative, pizza1512 - thanks for that link. Do tell me as well what type of jazz you personally like!

I am looking forward to your input TSax when you've had chance to think about it - and please don't forget to mention somewhere in your post what form of jazz YOU personally like

And if anyone else misunderstood my original post, please do share your passion for whatever type of jazz floats your particular boat

Jazz is so wide ranging, I think all the types you mention in your initial post are valid jazz styles skylark.

I'm a fan of all sorts of different jazz styles, in particular though the 'swing' era of the '20s, '30s and early '40s (perhaps having clarinets to the fore frequently in this style may have something to do with it ), but, in all seriousness, Benny Goodman is in my opinion a great clarinettist.

I'm also fond of 'dixieland' jazz, the Wikipedia article on this is a very good introduction to the form.

OK, that's probably a little bit easier to answer but only a bit, it' so difficult to classify.

The jazz I listen to is mainly post 50s be-bop and onwards. I like a lot of the Blue Note stuff, I love Dexter Gordon, Coltrane, Sonny Rollins on tenor sax. I like most of Miles Davis stuff pre and post Kind of Blue which covers a lot of styles. I like the down and dirty funk of Herbie Hancock's Headhunter's and similar stuff. I love Thelonious Monk's music and Mingus has to be somewhere at the top of the list.

Moving on from the American classic jazz (not sure if that's quite the right description) I really enjoy the modern European stuff and love listening to many of the bands gigging on the London scene at the moment - Polar Bear, Oriole, Ingrid Laubrock and other bands from the F-ire Collective, the Dune jazz crew including Soweto Kinch, Denys Baptiste and Abram Wilson. I'm really looking forward to seeing the Swedish piano trio EST in a few weeks time. Most of all I like to hear this stuff in a live situation, it's the spontaneity, creativity and communication within the group that really excites me.

I don't really like dixieland or trad jazz and big band stuff I can take or leave (although I did see a big band last week that could change my opinion on this, they were great and played new, inventive music). Although clarinet was my first instrument and I love to hear it play classical music I'm not so keen on it in a jazz setting. I don't tend to listen to much vocal jazz except when I'm working on ballads and I find listening to people like Ella Fitzgerald and Billie Holliday really help me to sort out the phrasing

I'm sure there's tons I've missed out, and to be honest I appreciate listening to live music performed well in pretty much any genre.

Ooh, my school got a free workshop with Soweto Kinch and Abram Wilson about ten days ago 'Twas a bit more geared towards "making music accessible to teenagers" (using speaking/whistling/making random noises, even though we're all doing GCSE music and I think they could have got it all a bit more instrumental) and MC-ing, but still good fun. Soweto Kinch has an interesting outlook on jazz/its influences and music in general which I really admire - if anyone ever gets the chance to hear him talk about it, it's well worth listening too.

To answer the question, I'm probably a bit of a funk person - Herbie Hancock and anyone that does stuff like him (plus the people that sort of spin off from it but aren't strictly jazz - Stevie Wonder, Michael Jackson etc.) I also quite like big band stuff and some latin jazz, plus composers like Bernstein and Gershwin who kind of took jazzy-sounding ideas and wrote fantastic stuff from them (I suspect the fact that musicals tend to have a jazz influence explains some of my love of musical soundtracks). To be honest though, I think there are next to no genres that I dislike - there's at least one tune in every genre that I love!

Anyone else like Beiderbeck??
Beverley.

I've just got out one of his CDs and it looks to have got some good tracks on it so I don't know why I don't play him more regularly! Thanks for reminding me about him

Good choice Skylark and nothing personal when I say ---- Louis Armstrong said in reply to the question, 'What is Jazz' ------
'If you gota ask, you aint got it'

Though I am a Newbie I have been playing Jazz for 52 years , clarinet,soprano,,alto,tenor saxes & flute and still love it at 70.

My own personal tastes range from N.O. through Swing to Hard Bop and Mainstream.
I am also into instrument repair and mouthpiece refacing.
Happy blowing all.

Hmmm, that wasn't actually the question I asked ....

Which part of my earlier posts gave you the impression that this WAS the question, and then maybe I could edit it so that nobody else misunderstands it ....

The actual question itself implies that we as Jazz lovers may not all agree as to what Jazz is.
This is likely because the music has developed such a range of diverse styles over the last century.
It has influenced and in turn been influenced by other forms of music during its development.
The contributions of many gifted musicians have steered it down many different paths, some of which are more acceptable to the listener than others.
Personally I think that rhythm is the core ingrediant.
Remove this and the music becomes an intellectual exercise, still called Jazz and liked by many, but moving away from the roots of Jazz to such an extent, that it may no longer be recognisable as having come from the same origins.
I think it is necessary to start from the beginning, both as a listener and a player, working ones way through the history of recorded Jazz to get a balanced appreciation of the music in all its forms.
Dig deep & enjoy.

Oh I see. I saw the first (and second) responses you made to this thread, Berg, before you edited them, and yes, you have misunderstood. I can see that you haven't made many posts, so you perhaps don't realise that headings are by necessity very brief and are just sufficient to give a flavour of the thread. The posts usually make it more clear what the originator is asking - which in this case was just simple curiosity as to what type of jazz my fellow enthusiasts on the forum like to listen to.



Thanks - I do.
Skylark (nee Jazzfan)

Any, really... Be-Bop, Blues, Big Band Swing, Boogie-Woogie... Any! (Dunno why I picked all the "B" ones!)

Sorry Skylark, I misunderstood your question and got carried away. Some say I should be
I notice you hail from Yorkshire. I lived in Huddersfield in '67 and played with different Jazz bands, including Jeff Milner. I wonder if he is still around ?

In my home town there used to be two jazz promoters who couldn't have been more diametrically opposed. One of them saw jazz as American New Orleans/swing/mainstream from 1910-1960 plus British trad but nothing much outside that. The other one saw jazz as a far looser genre incorporating all the above but also free-form avant-garde jazz and pretty much anything involving improvisation from anywhere around the world. The two were in so much opposition that they almost hated each other! The first guy thought the second guy was an 'arts council plant' who knew nothing about real jazz and the second guy thought the first guy was totally stuck in a rut.

Once, at a trad jazz festival, when we played the number 'A Night in Tunisia', somebody moaned 'oh no, this is bebop!' Even though we were playing it a la 'Hot Club' style of the 1930's

You get jazz magazines which completely ignore genres of jazz that the editorial board don't consider worthy of the name 'jazz'. Each bunch of readers can get quite quite sniffy with the other lot. Then you get jazz festivals which ignore whole genres, as well as festivals which try to cater for the whole gamut.

In the end I just don't think you can define jazz any more because its boundaries have shifted so far. There must be a point beyond which 'improvised music' is no longer jazz but I don't know where that point is. There were certain definitive movements in jazz - New Orleans, awing, bebop, mainstream, birth of the cool, avant-garde, jazz-funk - but since then jazz has evolved all over the place. Some say it's actually died and what has taken over shouldn't really be called jazz, while others say it's just continuing to evolve but in a more eclectic way than ever before; there's a case for both points of view.

Violinia

I really wish I hadn't started this thread!


Berg, thanks for your last post I can't help thinking that with all your experience, it's a shame you don't post on the forums more often. With 52 years in jazz, you must have some fascinating stories to tell and I'm sure many of us would like to listen to them. If you feel inclined to share some of your memories, or thoughts about jazz, do think about starting a thread ....


Hi Violinia! Hope your neck is getting better, I imagine a stiff neck must be pretty bad news for a violinist... I had a look at your Edirol thread the other day and it made me want one Hope you're getting on OK with it now.


And if anyone else wants to talk about "what is jazz" on this thread, please feel free - just leave me out of it!

For me, jazz has a really broad meaning - from pop/funk/reggae/ska to blues/swing/bebop and contemporary, modern european... whatever! There's so much great music, so much to listen to and learn from. It was the London Jazz festival recently and I made two gigs (I was up in the NW for saxophone dayat RNCM at the start of the festival, but Tim Garland / Gwilym Simcock / Asaf Sirkis more than made up for that). The first gig was Polar Bear and EST at the Barbican - the music was great, I've seen Polar Bear a couple of times before, and this was very much modern Eurpoean jazz. For me, the venue wasn't great. Most of the gigs I go to are smallish venues, by the time I booked my seats at the Barbican I was up in the balcony and it seemed to swallow all the personal interaction I really love about small gigs. Having said that for bands like EST large venues is the only choice so I'm going to have to get my act together and book seats at the front in future.

The second gig was Abram Wilson and then Soweto Kinch at the QEH. Wow - if you're lookng for crossover jazz these guys have it all. Soweto Kinch in particular blew me away. To be honest, I'm not a big fan of hip-hop/rap, but when it's as intelligent and eloquent as this I have time for it, and Soweto Kinch is an astonishingly good, steaming hot, alto player.

I come from NW England and kind of ended up in London by accident for work. Now I'm here I wouldn't like to be anywhere else - there is a lot of really fantastic cutting edge music here pretty much any night of the week. I've almost turned into a southerner

[quote name='Violinia' date='Nov 25 2006, 03:41 PM' post='426900']
In my home town there used to be two jazz promoters who couldn't have been more diametrically opposed. One of them saw jazz as American New Orleans/swing/mainstream from 1910-1960 plus British trad but nothing much outside that. The other one saw jazz as a far looser genre incorporating all the above but also free-form avant-garde jazz and pretty much anything involving improvisation from anywhere around the world. The two were in so much opposition that they almost hated each other! The first guy thought the second guy was an 'arts council plant' who knew nothing about real jazz and the second guy thought the first guy was totally stuck in a rut.

Once, at a trad jazz festival, when we played the number 'A Night in Tunisia', somebody moaned 'oh no, this is bebop!' Even though we were playing it a la 'Hot Club' style of the 1930's

You get jazz magazines which completely ignore genres of jazz that the editorial board don't consider worthy of the name 'jazz'. Each bunch of readers can get quite quite sniffy with the other lot. Then you get jazz festivals which ignore whole genres, as well as festivals which try to cater for the whole gamut.

In the end I just don't think you can define jazz any more because its boundaries have shifted so far. There must be a point beyond which 'improvised music' is no longer jazz but I don't know where that point is. There were certain definitive movements in jazz - New Orleans, awing, bebop, mainstream, birth of the cool, avant-garde, jazz-funk - but since then jazz has evolved all over the place. Some say it's actually died and what has taken over shouldn't really be called jazz, while others say it's just continuing to evolve but in a more eclectic way than ever before; there's a case for both points of view.

Violinia
Hi Violinia,
Your Hot Club version of Night in Tunisia maybe made Jazz history in, that it looks like an attempt to pull back from Bebop and create a new catogary called Retro-Fusion ? I wish I had heard it.

Heh heh, we did it for a laugh actually. It's a really exciting tune and I think it worked well in the Hot Club style because the chord sequence is so good.

We split up for a while but are now back together again with a totally new set. It's not Hot Club any more (we'd been doing it for too many years and needed a change). Same line-up though - two guitars, double bass and violin, but this time a really eclectic repertoire ranging from Pat Metheny through Steely Dan, Martin Taylor, a Klezmer piece or two, a Turkish tango number, an Irish folk tune played over edgy jazz chords, a Django ballad played in fast Latin style, some rather poignant Astor Piazzolla, a bit of George Shearing and a large number of original compositions. First gig on December 16th at a large private party amongst friends.

We'll still do the old Hot Club set if requested but are pretty fired up by this new set and will be looking to play at arts centres, eclectic-style jazz clubs and festivals - anywhere that will have us but with a nice listening audience, candles on tables sort of thing.

I can't wait!!! We're mainly in the West Country and thereabouts but will travel roughly 150-200 miles in every direction so if we're anywhere near you, come and see us!

Violinia

PS Oops I just looked at your moniker and saw you're in NE Scotland.

[quote name='Violinia' date='Nov 27 2006, 01:28 AM' post='427427']
[quote name='BERG' post='427378' date='Nov 26 2006, 09:19 PM']
Hi Violinia,
Your Hot Club version of Night in Tunisia maybe made Jazz history in, that it looks like an attempt to pull back from Bebop and create a new catogary called Retro-Fusion ? I wish I had heard it.
[/quote]

Heh heh, we did it for a laugh actually. It's a really exciting tune and I think it worked well in the Hot Club style because the chord sequence is so good.

We split up for a while but are now back together again with a totally new set. It's not Hot Club any more (we'd been doing it for too many years and needed a change). Same line-up though - two guitars, double bass and violin, but this time a really eclectic repertoire ranging from Pat Metheny through Steely Dan, Martin Taylor, a Klezmer piece or two, a Turkish tango number, an Irish folk tune played over edgy jazz chords, a Django ballad played in fast Latin style, some rather poignant Astor Piazzolla, a bit of George Shearing and a large number of original compositions. First gig on December 16th at a large private party amongst friends.

We'll still do the old Hot Club set if requested but are pretty fired up by this new set and will be looking to play at arts centres, eclectic-style jazz clubs and festivals - anywhere that will have us but with a nice listening audience, candles on tables sort of thing.

I can't wait!!! We're mainly in the West Country and thereabouts but will travel roughly 150-200 miles in every direction so if we're anywhere near you, come and see us!

Violinia

PS Oops I just looked at your moniker and saw you're in NE Scotland.
Yes its a constant annoyance being so far from all the action. The population is only one tenth of England as a whole, so the available Jazz is also less. We have festivals in the islands of Bute, Islay and various towns. and cities throughout the year.
I've just been to Nairn to hear the Scott Hamilton Quartet, with an international flavour. Hamilton on tenor(USA) Steve Brown(England)drums, Rossano Sportiello(Italy) piano and Nicki Parrot double bass & vocals(Australia via New York) . Nicki is a lady who can give virtuoistic solos on the bass and does'nt show any muscles, amazing ! I wish I had her stamina.
I hope the party goes with a 'swing' on the 16th. It is certainly an interesting programme.

Did you enjoy Scott Hamilton? I went to see him perform with Ken Peplowski a few months ago and couldn't get into it at all. I went with someone who really enjoys sax, and we could both see that the rest of the audience appreciated the music (lots of oo-ahs of delight when they announced what they were going to play etc), but I found the rhythm so far removed from the New Orleans rhythm that I normally listen to, that I couldn't identify with it at all.

So we clapped in all the right places along with everyone else, but had no idea why we were doing so Can anyone who likes this genre of jazz have a go at explaining what everyone else saw in the Hamilton/Peplowski style that we couldn't appreciate?

Interesting thread this. My husband and No 3 daughter (aged 14) are die hard Jazz fans and performers. We take turns to take her to gigs at the Jazz Festival every year. However because of her age she cant get into venues like Ronnie Scotts etc., so its the Barbican and Festival Hall, and now that the Roundhouse is re-opened, we go. We caught Abdullah Ibrahim and Soweto Kinch but missed out on a few other acts. She did a workshop with the Spanish Harlem Orchestra at the Roundhouse but couldnt get in at the Jazz Cafe to see them play! The biggest irony is if she is a performer she can get in to the Jazz Cafe and she has played there and the Spitz twice, otherwise great big guy at the door blocking her way! She is so tiny she cant even pass for 16 much less 18!
So at the moment we are grateful for the larger venues being open to all ages!

By the by I am told there is the "New Conservatism" led by Wynton Marsilis

The Vortex (www.vortexjazz.co.uk) state that they "have no lower age limit although normal licensing laws apply to the sale of alcoholic drinks" so you should be able to take her there, and they have some really good cutting edge acts playing. Another possibility is Spice of Life in Soho (www.spicejazz.co.uk), I'm not sure what their age policy is - it's the basement of a pub and so has a pub-like atmosphere and potentially licensing constraints, but the people who run it are really friendly and happy to help. They have a phone no on their web-site for pre-bookings - you could try calling them and asking. One big advantage of both these venues is that they are small enough to get good audience / band interactions and the ticket prices are very reasonable.

Hey TSax Thanks. We did hear about the Vortex, as her teacher Nikki Yeoh played there, but havent checked them out - will check out both suggestions. Aint this Forum Grand!

Yes, I did enjoy Scott Hamilton, but as a tenorist I listened to the technical side of his playing rather than the musical side. The rhythm section was to tight and did'nt swing until near the end of the evening when they played an unannounced number, based on the chord sequence of Honeysuckle Rose I think. THEN my foot started tapping. I'm not sure who was to blame for this but the drummer used brushes all the time and as he was furthest from the piano, there may have been an acoustic time lag between them.
Clapping a soloist, tends not to be found in N.O. Jazz as the emphasis is on ensemble playing. I think it started with Chicago Jazz where the soloist is featured more.
The audience were mostly well heeled and came from afar, clapping dutifuly at every opportunity though most were true Jazz fans and knew when it was inappropriate to do so.
I've heard Ken Peplowski playing with the BBC Big Band and he is truly world class in the Benny Goodman tradition. Vic Ash introduced me to him, so I could ask about his set up. Like many top players very unassuming.
The two beat rhythm of N.O. Jazz complements the style perfectly, but in Swing, the more advanced drumming style allows the soloist greater rhythmic freedom to 'Ride The Beat' with time shift, letting him 'Swing' on either side of the drummer .
This greater rhythmic freedom paved the way for Swing to give way to later styles like Jump and Bebop.
I hope this answers your questions Skylark

I knew of Ken Peplowski mainly from someone who has always been a fan of the big band sound, particularly Benny Goodman and latterly KP. So my expectations were for this type of music. When KP and Scott Hamilton came on stage, one of them (I can't remember which) announced that he'd just flown in from Germany and had left the music behind. So maybe that's why we seemed to get more of a "jamming" event than the type of music we were expecting. Or maybe KP just plays a different type of music when he's playing with SH?
Incidentally, at the interval, KP asked the audience if anyone could give him a lift to the airport the following morning - wish I'd known earlier, how cool would that have been



I don't think we had any foot-tapping music at all during the KP/SH concert

Thanks for the reply Berg.

Scott Hamilton came on stage, one of them (I can't remember which) announced that he'd just flown in from Germany and had left the music behind. Or maybe KP just plays a different type of music when he's playing with SH?
Joke Players of that calibre don't NEED the music, its in thier heads.
They both come from the same school of playing and KP plays tenor also, so they are much and sutch.
Neither are agressive players and putting them together seems more of a promoters idea than a good Jazz combination. Not enough contrast between the classical approach of KP's clarinet & the warm seductive tones of SH's tenor. Not quite the fire of Kenny Davern with Bob Wilber in Soprano Summit perhaps.
I feel they might both be more at home in big band settings though they are always worth listening to as soloists.
What is your taste in clarinettists Skylark ?

Did you ever know a sax player/clarinettist called Bill Greenow, Berg? He used to play with Kenny Davern, Wild Bill Davison etc but then went to live in Sweden for many years. He's now back in the UK, living in Kent and playing around London with various people. A lovely player!

Violinia

Well I think I prefer most styles of jazz. Though I particularly like swing and fusion jazz.

No , I guess I missed out on him. I did a Google search and he did a backing track for a medical film and recorded with the Cuff Billett/Bill Greenow Quintet. Big in British N.O.circles. Followed in Sammy Rimmington's footsteps to the continent and played with Belgian gypsy guitarist Koen de Cauter and the Waso Gypsy Band.
This is brobably how you know of him, through the Hot Club connection.
Thanks for that Violinia

I did think it was a bit odd to mention music because I've never seen jazz musicians play from music either! But as a joke I think it fell a bit flat at the time! I think you're right about putting them together though, it just didn't seem to work. They did do some solo pieces, but I just remember the whole evening as being very bland.


Sidney Bechet and Artie Shaw are the two are I like listening to most