I probably risk incurring the wrath of many a piano teacher here, but I'll ask the question anyway.

I play saxophones, almost exclusively jazz sax and for a number of years I've been toying with the idea of getting some keyboard skills. Not so much because I want to play classical piano or go down the grade route, although if that's a reasonable route to take I'm not averse to it. What I see keyboard skills adding is a better understanding of chord structure and harmony, a tool to "tinker" with tunes and harmonies, a way of helping to improve my not very good aural skills (it's difficult to sing and blow a sax at the same time, but not impossible, results in an effect called "growling") and generally improve my musicianship. I'd like to learn piano type skills rather than keyboard i.e. play music using two staves and not use pre-programmed chords - I want to understand more about how to voice chords.

A month or so ago I went ahead and bought a keyboard, quite a nice one, 88 touch sensitive keys, sustain pedal etc but not a piano. Since then I've been playing about and using various teach yourself piano tutor books, have managed to play simple tunes with two hands, improved my bass clef reading skills and added concert pitch to Bb and Eb for learning tunes in. One great thing about the keyboard is it actually makes a nice sound and is in tune from the start, none of this sounding like a duck/cow/strangled cat to begin with and no spending half your practice time working on tone and intonation.

I am aware though that teaching myself isn't the best thing to do, so here comes the question - if I call a piano teacher and ask about lessons are they likely to get upset about the keyboard rather than a piano issue? At some point in the future I'm prepared to upgrade to a digital piano rather than a keyboard but the silent practice / space / potential to record backing tracks for sax etc mean that digital is much more practical for me than acoustic.

Just to defend keyboard players here - I've done just over five years of keyboards lessons and have always used two staves and have never used a pre-programmed chord - in fact I can't as I learned on a piano...

I would guess that studying keyboard would teach you a lot more about chords than piano. My keyboard teacher often says how she gets students who have passed exams in piano and know nothing about how music is constructed.

I am aware though that teaching myself isn't the best thing to do, so here comes the question - if I call a piano teacher and ask about lessons are they likely to get upset about the keyboard rather than a piano issue? At some point in the future I'm prepared to upgrade to a digital piano rather than a keyboard but the silent practice / space / potential to record backing tracks for sax etc mean that digital is much more practical for me than acoustic.

As long as your keyboard is touch-sensitive and has a reasonable action, I wouldn't necessarily, as a teacher, be worried about it at this stage. There are aspects of piano technique that can't satisfactorily be taught on a keyboard, but for what you want to do at the moment, it's likely to be adequate. I can't speak for other teachers of course. I often start pupils off who have only a keyboard at home, and I'm not keen on preparing for practical exams with a keyboard (although I have done - I have a pupil who's done grade 1 and 2 with only keyboard, although I don't think it's ideal). There are plenty of reasons why a keyboard is useful in the early stages. You have obviously got plenty out of it already - good luck with finding a teacher who is content for you to use it for now. A decent digital is likely to be perfectly acceptable with many teachers when you decide to upgrade.

Sorry, didn't mean to offend anyone. With my very limited knowledge I'd got the impression that one of the differences between starting by learning keyboard as opposed to piano was that you tended to learn in that way, but I could well be wrong.

In terms of how chords are constructed I've got a reasonable knowledge of theory and functional harmony from the jazz stuff I do, but because I only play a one note instrument I can't really play about with them on my own at home to discover things for myself. I know that jazz pianists will voice the same chord differently dependent on it's place in the chord progression, what is implied by the melody and what the soloist is referring to - I can't see how that can be done using the "one-finger" keyboard approach (again I'm prepared to be corrected).

I've got a pupil who has been learning for a year now on a keyboard, and the thing I've noticed now is that she tends to 'push' the keys rather than 'hit' them - I'm trying to get her to play loudly and quietly, and accents. Even though the keys will be all the way down on the piano you can see that she's pressing and pressing to 'make it louder'. I don't know if this is a consequence of practising on the keyboard, or me just needing to explain in a different way. I guess that initial pressure is how a touch sensitive keyboard guages dynamic so it would make sense but I notice that her arms are just so tense, and I know that tension is not a good thing to have because it can become a habit.

TSax - I have no doubt that you know what you are doing anyway, the girl I'm talking about is 9 and needs proper guidance! With children you can talk until you're blue in the face as I'm sure you're aware before something sinks in!

It's a common misconception that keyboard is a dumbed down version of piano. All the chords must be played in full with all necessary fingers...

"3. The use of ‘single finger’ chords is not permitted in any examination." - LCM Keyboard Exam Syllabus Page 15, 1.17 Technical Guidelines

So no - I can't see how that can be done using the "one-finger" keyboard approach either - but keyboard is not a one-fingered approach although some keyboards have this facility.

I think your keyboard sounds perfect for what you're looking for - but not for piano exams. Have a look at some keyboard course books and some piano course books - you'll see the difference in terms of the way keyboard is taught through a chord-led approach (proper chords, triads and all inversions - never one-fingered) with creativity encouraged.

[quote name='Kate' date='Nov 1 2006, 07:57 PM' post='416884']
TSax - I have no doubt that you know what you are doing anyway, the girl I'm talking about is 9 and needs proper guidance! With children you can talk until you're blue in the face as I'm sure you're aware before something sinks in!
[/quote]

I wouldn't bank on it - I do intend to get some guidance at soem point though, when I've worked out quite how to fit it in. One thing I have noticed when I'm playing though is that if I "push" rather than hit a key it doesn't sound - I kept doing that with F# which was the first black key in the book I'm using, when I hit it does.

[quote name='sneekymum' date='Nov 1 2006, 08:51 PM' post='416917']
[quote name='TSax' post='416867' date='Nov 1 2006, 07:24 PM']

It's a common misconception that keyboard is a dumbed down version of piano. All the chords must be played in full with all necessary fingers...

"3. The use of ‘single finger’ chords is not permitted in any examination." - LCM Keyboard Exam Syllabus Page 15, 1.17 Technical Guidelines

So no - I can't see how that can be done using the "one-finger" keyboard approach either - but keyboard is not a one-fingered approach although some keyboards have this facility.

I think your keyboard sounds perfect for what you're looking for - but not for piano exams. Have a look at some keyboard course books and some piano course books - you'll see the difference in terms of the way keyboard is taught through a chord-led approach (proper chords, triads and all inversions - never one-fingered) with creativity encouraged.
[/quote]

Thank you - I'll have a look through some keyboard books next time I'm in a music shop - it sounds as though this could be a good way for me to approach getting to the things I want to know. I suspect my objectives are a bit different to many of the people learning piano (and/or keyboard) who post here and it may be that a different learning approach is better. I'm sure that good basic technique must underpin every style of playing though - that's what I'm worried about missing out on.

Sounds as though it's a digital piano rather than a keyboard from the way you say you have to make a sound.

Try to achieve a decent hand position and aim for consistent fingering.

I used to worry about that too - but then I play on a piano and not a keyboard.

I had to play (sight read) everything in the LCM Grade Three Piano Handbook recently to choose one for the Composition Exam - and I find I can play them (though badly) and it crossed my mind that I could get few piano lessons and take the exam but then I need to remind myself that I can't do everything. The big difference though is that as I was playing I could see the chords behind the music and that is the basis for the work required to prepare one as an arrangement for four instruments. Studying keyboard techniques is the most valuable thing I've ever learned in music.

Just for the record - I'd be in agreement with most of what maggiemay said earlier. Quite a few of my piano pupils have started with a keyboard - some pretty basic ones, too - and have moved on to a piano at about grade 2-3, having been very successful in exams up to that point. The only real problem in these early grades is dynamic range and touch, but it's surprising how a student can adapt to a piano when required. I have a child at the minute who is about to do the LCM Step 2 exam (the higher pre-Grade 1 option) and is somehow playing with excellent touch and clear dynamic contrast - and her keyboard is not even touch-sensitive. I have absolutely no idea how she's doing this with no aural feedback from her instrument at home, but it shows at least that it's not impossible to transfer to a piano if you have in your head what the music should sound like.

Sneekymum, I am SO encouraged by your experience of proper keyboard training and your comments regarding the importance of using fully fingered chords. I teach more keyboard than piano and you are right - keyboard playing can really enhance a student's knowledge of harmony. There is also the opportunity to develop improvisation skills, different pop styles, multi tracking etc. - the list goes on.

Re the original query, I know of one student who recently took grade 5 piano practising on a keyboard. Whilst I wouldn't recommend this, it shows it can be done!

Aw thanks! I do feel like a voice calling in the wilderness - people often think that keyboards play themselves.

We might actually buy one soon though as my son is planning to do GCSE Music and I don't want competition for the piano (and it will keep him and his smelly friends confined to his room).

The piano is better for me as I'm rather deaf and I get a much better sense of when a note starts - the keyboard is a bit vague for that. But I chose to learn keyboard on it specifically as I wanted a thorough understanding of music to write it better - and to be able to play anything and make up the left hand as I go along.

My understanding of piano lessons is that you carefully learn to play each piece as written. Is that correct?

I would totally support maggiemay's comments. As a piano teacher myself, I do have several pupils who only have a keyboard (not digital piano) at home. It's not 100% ideal but it's ok for a start plus you do get the benefit of being able to play it as keyboard or piano. They are different IMHO.

I'd say try and find yourself a sympathetic teacher and take it from there. Good Luck!

I think this is a bit simplistic. You have to look at structure and form and phrasing and understand different devices (Alberti bass, arpeggios, etc etc) in order to play a piece well, IMO. You obviously learn this as you go along but even the easiest pieces have some sort of form and structure and that can be taught! You can then go on to things like realising figured bass, which most definitely involve needing to know how music 'works' rather than just getting your fingers to play the notes on the page in order.

And then there is jazz piano which is a whole other kettle of fish!

Thank you to everyone for their advice. I've been reassured that it's possible to at least make a start on what I'm hoping to achieve with the current set-up. I've got 3 other musical activities I'm thinking about trying to fit into my time early next year, so I need to give some thought to how much is possible, either that or hope the caterpillar analogy in the Organising Your Time thread in the Adult Learners section will work, and then look into finding a teacher who can help me