Hi
I have a ten year old female pianist who is on the book two of the John Thompson's Easiest Piano Course. She is playing with her left hand fingers almost completely flat and despite all my efforts I cannot seem to encourage her to curl them up a bit! I find it very frustrating because she is making good progress in all other areas and then I have to keep nagging every lesson about her finger position. I have tried making a joke about it to keep it lighthearted.
Has anyone any ideas as to how to overcome this, or am I getting too hung up about it!
Thanks
K
Full Version: Piano Hands
No, you are not nagging.
Keep up the good work. The sooner problems are ironed out the better. I tell mine to play on the tips of the fingers.
I also have to give gentle reminders, and sometimes we just stop playing and I ask the pupil to press each key down slowly , one at a time.
Jod mentioned about dozen a day on another post, being good for technique. Perhaps this would be a good idea, in order to really focus on this problem.
Keep up the good work. The sooner problems are ironed out the better. I tell mine to play on the tips of the fingers.
I also have to give gentle reminders, and sometimes we just stop playing and I ask the pupil to press each key down slowly , one at a time.
Jod mentioned about dozen a day on another post, being good for technique. Perhaps this would be a good idea, in order to really focus on this problem.
I have only really just started curling my fingers properly. I think it's very important that your fingers are curled as it will help this girl when she gets on to harder stuff. A lot of scales helped me to solve my problem but its important to try and keep it fun. Make sure you keep praising your pupil for the things she does well but try and persuade her that having curled fingers is really important. Good luck 
Might I go slightly off topic and and WHY it is so important?
*hides*
*hides*
QUOTE(Rosemary7391 @ Nov 7 2006, 08:25 PM) 
Might I go slightly off topic and and WHY it is so important?
*hides*
Good question.
Ok... hold your hands with your fingers fairly flat and wiggle them.
Now do the same with a relaxed, curved fingers (for a good hand shape let your arms relax at your sides then raise and when you bend your elbow to lift you arms keep that hand shape).
Which way gives you more freedom of movement?
Also when you curve your fingers it sort of makes them about the same length as each other.
QUOTE(Rosemary7391 @ Nov 7 2006, 09:25 PM)
Might I go slightly off topic and and WHY it is so important?
*hides*
I think it allows for more ease of movement between the fingers. It's difficult to play chords with flat fingers (especially if the notes are grouped closely), and when playing scales and runs, there needs to be sufficient room for the thumbs to pass underneath - otherwise things get awkward and you get a lot of jerky wrist movement, which would probably strain after a while. When playing forte, you can't get as much power behind the fingers when they are flat, which can lead to people using the whole weight of their hand to get the effect (thumpers
) - but this can sound very harsh.I'm sure there are loads more reasons. I don't neccessarily tell pupils to play with the very tips of their fingers. It's more the part between the flat of the finger and the tip which actually hits the key.
xxx
Yes, there is certainly more control when hitting keys with curled fingers, to get smoother legato or lighter / heavier staccato as well as the all important expression.
QUOTE(amanda41 @ Nov 7 2006, 10:32 PM)
QUOTE(Rosemary7391 @ Nov 7 2006, 09:25 PM)
Might I go slightly off topic and and WHY it is so important?
*hides*
I think it allows for more ease of movement between the fingers. It's difficult to play chords with flat fingers (especially if the notes are grouped closely), and when playing scales and runs, there needs to be sufficient room for the thumbs to pass underneath - otherwise things get awkward and you get a lot of jerky wrist movement, which would probably strain after a while. When playing forte, you can't get as much power behind the fingers when they are flat, which can lead to people using the whole weight of their hand to get the effect (thumpers
) - but this can sound very harsh.I'm sure there are loads more reasons. I don't neccessarily tell pupils to play with the very tips of their fingers. It's more the part between the flat of the finger and the tip which actually hits the key.
xxx
I agree with the above articulate response and also with what lil miz music said earlier. Scale playing is surely the key to all one's playing. If the correct technique is taught early on, i.e. from day 1 when finger exercises are taught then the hand shape for one's general playing will take care of itself. Smooth legato playing cannot be done with ease if the candidate in question cannot or will not learn the necessary new tricks.
LR
Many young children have such flexible joints that if they play with flat fingers they will not be flat, but curved in the opposite direction! My piano has quite a heavy action, so little ones soon learn that it is easy to depress the keys if you have the correct hand/finger shape, but very difficult if you do not! When they first start I do "bird wings" with them - they put their hands on their hips and flap their "wings", then bring their hands forward on to the keyboard at shoulder width. The hands automatically go in the right shape (though are frequently changed shortly afterwards!)
QUOTE(Suepea @ Nov 7 2006, 11:02 PM)
Many young children have such flexible joints that if they play with flat fingers they will not be flat, but curved in the opposite direction!
Not only children, Suepea. My fingers do that too
and the issue was being addressed in my lesson on Monday just before you arrived.
in the past, when i first started, i played everything fingers flat too! but later on, in grade 3 i think, my fingers automatically became curved.. i supposed this changed automatically because of all the scales, the appreggios, the pieces that require smooth legato, detached staccato etc... these are all hard to do with flat fingers!
ShArOn
ShArOn
It worked with one of my pupils by me only letting them play with their hand sfurther up the keys ie. between the black notes. Then they had to curve their fingers as the balck notes were in the way! Might be worth a go....
Thank you all for your help. It has made me realise that I am fussing over something important and which I feel will make her a better pianist and I suppose this is what it's all about!
K
Adult learner here - sorry to intrude...
My last piano teacher never taught me anything regarding curled fingers or whatever - simply to keep my fingers on the keys. My latest teacher tells me my fingers should be curled as though they are resting over my knees - she did insist that they be my knees and no-one elses! (Nice to have some boundaries established!) But it seems to work a treat, otherwise my 'pinky' seems to lift up and wander off on its own - that seems to be related to tension in my left shoulder. Like grinding your teeth - sometimes just being aware you are doing it seems enough to prevent it.
Take care.
My last piano teacher never taught me anything regarding curled fingers or whatever - simply to keep my fingers on the keys. My latest teacher tells me my fingers should be curled as though they are resting over my knees - she did insist that they be my knees and no-one elses! (Nice to have some boundaries established!) But it seems to work a treat, otherwise my 'pinky' seems to lift up and wander off on its own - that seems to be related to tension in my left shoulder. Like grinding your teeth - sometimes just being aware you are doing it seems enough to prevent it.
Take care.
In the Pauline Hall books she says to make your hand into a bridge for a mouse to sit under. Some of my pupils-even 10 year old ones-think it is very funny being reminded not to squash the mouse, but it does make them put their hands in the right position for a while at least.
I find that the fingers will curve on their own in the end with most pupils: once they start playing scales and chords they will see the reasoning behind it, so i do not nag them. but this term i am working with my beginners to try and eliminate flat fingers, telling them to put their hands in a spider shape.
QUOTE(Inuksuk @ Nov 10 2006, 10:04 PM)
In the Pauline Hall books she says to make your hand into a bridge for a mouse to sit under. Some of my pupils-even 10 year old ones-think it is very funny being reminded not to squash the mouse, but it does make them put their hands in the right position for a while at least.
I use this method too - I squeak if they are squashing the mouse, which they think is hilarious.
Yes, I find the mouse idea works well too.
However, although most pupils eventually remember to keep their fingers curved, it doesn't automatically mean that they keep them correctly curved. It often takes longer, with students of all ages, for those end- joints not to flop.
However, although most pupils eventually remember to keep their fingers curved, it doesn't automatically mean that they keep them correctly curved. It often takes longer, with students of all ages, for those end- joints not to flop.
slightly different problem but one that i feel is best suited in this thread.
My student has the most bizzare hand shape (particularly when playing arps), thats fairly tricky to describe - but i will give it a bash:
The top of his hand is level with his wrist. He then bends his knuckles down, lifts his finger and the bends his finger tips. He cant seem to raise his knuckles and support himself. In a normal 5 finger shape he doesnt do this.
How can i get him to maintain a good hand shape whilst making the arp stretch ?
My student has the most bizzare hand shape (particularly when playing arps), thats fairly tricky to describe - but i will give it a bash:
The top of his hand is level with his wrist. He then bends his knuckles down, lifts his finger and the bends his finger tips. He cant seem to raise his knuckles and support himself. In a normal 5 finger shape he doesnt do this.
How can i get him to maintain a good hand shape whilst making the arp stretch ?
My favourite is the mouse one, I have a mouse called Thomas who lives in the piano who likes to run across the keys. honest 
The little ones aren't sure anyway.
One of my girls who has some tuition in school as well has told me she imagines baby turtles underneath her hands.
I completely agree with sorting it soon...much easier to make something second nature at the start than to try and change well practised bad habits after even 6 months.
The little ones aren't sure anyway.One of my girls who has some tuition in school as well has told me she imagines baby turtles underneath her hands.
I completely agree with sorting it soon...much easier to make something second nature at the start than to try and change well practised bad habits after even 6 months.
QUOTE(Suepea @ Nov 11 2006, 11:17 PM)
QUOTE(Inuksuk @ Nov 10 2006, 10:04 PM)
In the Pauline Hall books she says to make your hand into a bridge for a mouse to sit under. Some of my pupils-even 10 year old ones-think it is very funny being reminded not to squash the mouse, but it does make them put their hands in the right position for a while at least.
I use this method too - I squeak if they are squashing the mouse, which they think is hilarious.
One of my little ones has got really into the mouse image. The trouble is, when I suggest she might be squashing the mouse, she just gives me a withering look and says "He's run away." End of story.
If I try to give her another mouse he instantly runs away - sometimes quite noisily along the keys(!) - to the bottom end of the keyboard and then hides in the piano so we can't get him back. Some children are just too imaginative...!
does the pupil's hand move around in ways it shouldn't because of this? my teacher used to put a 10p coin on the back of my hand to make me play as evenly as possible to stop it falling off. I seem to remember this being a lot easier with the proper hand position.
Flat fingers are actually tense - the muscles and tendons are stretched and tense to maintain the straighter shape.... if your hands are completely relaxed, and I mean completely, look at how curved they are naturally when all the tendons and muscles etc are allowed to relax......playing with curved fingers should allow the hand to be more relaxed therefore allowing faster and less stressful movement...... Flat fingers also cause tension in the underside of the forearm which also means tension and rigidity in the arm more generally.....
QUOTE(Alison @ May 25 2007, 09:46 AM)
One of my little ones has got really into the mouse image. The trouble is, when I suggest she might be squashing the mouse, she just gives me a withering look and says "He's run away." End of story.
If I try to give her another mouse he instantly runs away - sometimes quite noisily along the keys(!) - to the bottom end of the keyboard and then hides in the piano so we can't get him back. Some children are just too imaginative...!
If I try to give her another mouse he instantly runs away - sometimes quite noisily along the keys(!) - to the bottom end of the keyboard and then hides in the piano so we can't get him back. Some children are just too imaginative...!
brilliant!
QUOTE(Alison @ May 25 2007, 10:46 AM)
One of my little ones has got really into the mouse image. The trouble is, when I suggest she might be squashing the mouse, she just gives me a withering look and says "He's run away." End of story.
If I try to give her another mouse he instantly runs away - sometimes quite noisily along the keys(!) - to the bottom end of the keyboard and then hides in the piano so we can't get him back. Some children are just too imaginative...!
Sounds a bit like my daughter. I said she was squashing her mouse and she said he'd gone away because he was scared of the cat. I said "What do you mean, he was scared of the cat, we haven't got a cat" and she looked disparingly at me and replied "Honestly Mummy, of course you can't see it, only invisible mice can see the invisible cat."
QUOTE(kerioboe @ May 25 2007, 04:34 PM)
QUOTE(Alison @ May 25 2007, 10:46 AM)
One of my little ones has got really into the mouse image. The trouble is, when I suggest she might be squashing the mouse, she just gives me a withering look and says "He's run away." End of story.
If I try to give her another mouse he instantly runs away - sometimes quite noisily along the keys(!) - to the bottom end of the keyboard and then hides in the piano so we can't get him back. Some children are just too imaginative...!
Sounds a bit like my daughter. I said she was squashing her mouse and she said he'd gone away because he was scared of the cat. I said "What do you mean, he was scared of the cat, we haven't got a cat" and she looked disparingly at me and replied "Honestly Mummy, of course you can't see it, only invisible mice can see the invisible cat."
Bwahahahahaha! kerioboe, your tales about your daughter just crack me up... she's priceless!
QUOTE(sarah-flute @ May 25 2007, 06:49 PM)
QUOTE(kerioboe @ May 25 2007, 04:34 PM)
QUOTE(Alison @ May 25 2007, 10:46 AM)
One of my little ones has got really into the mouse image. The trouble is, when I suggest she might be squashing the mouse, she just gives me a withering look and says "He's run away." End of story.
If I try to give her another mouse he instantly runs away - sometimes quite noisily along the keys(!) - to the bottom end of the keyboard and then hides in the piano so we can't get him back. Some children are just too imaginative...!
Sounds a bit like my daughter. I said she was squashing her mouse and she said he'd gone away because he was scared of the cat. I said "What do you mean, he was scared of the cat, we haven't got a cat" and she looked disparingly at me and replied "Honestly Mummy, of course you can't see it, only invisible mice can see the invisible cat."
Bwahahahahaha! kerioboe, your tales about your daughter just crack me up... she's priceless!
Living with her all the time can sometimes be a bit wearing.
And it is hard to believe that this same child is a selective mute and doesn't say anything to non-family adults outside the home.
QUOTE(Alison @ May 25 2007, 09:46 AM)
QUOTE(Suepea @ Nov 11 2006, 11:17 PM)
QUOTE(Inuksuk @ Nov 10 2006, 10:04 PM)
In the Pauline Hall books she says to make your hand into a bridge for a mouse to sit under. Some of my pupils-even 10 year old ones-think it is very funny being reminded not to squash the mouse, but it does make them put their hands in the right position for a while at least.
I use this method too - I squeak if they are squashing the mouse, which they think is hilarious.
One of my little ones has got really into the mouse image. The trouble is, when I suggest she might be squashing the mouse, she just gives me a withering look and says "He's run away." End of story.
If I try to give her another mouse he instantly runs away - sometimes quite noisily along the keys(!) - to the bottom end of the keyboard and then hides in the piano so we can't get him back. Some children are just too imaginative...!
I have now bought a mouse finger puppet so the only one who can make the mouse run away is me.
The children do tend to squash it on purpose to hear it squeak though.
QUOTE(kerioboe @ May 25 2007, 07:36 PM)
QUOTE(sarah-flute @ May 25 2007, 06:49 PM)
QUOTE(kerioboe @ May 25 2007, 04:34 PM)
QUOTE(Alison @ May 25 2007, 10:46 AM)
One of my little ones has got really into the mouse image. The trouble is, when I suggest she might be squashing the mouse, she just gives me a withering look and says "He's run away." End of story.
If I try to give her another mouse he instantly runs away - sometimes quite noisily along the keys(!) - to the bottom end of the keyboard and then hides in the piano so we can't get him back. Some children are just too imaginative...!
Sounds a bit like my daughter. I said she was squashing her mouse and she said he'd gone away because he was scared of the cat. I said "What do you mean, he was scared of the cat, we haven't got a cat" and she looked disparingly at me and replied "Honestly Mummy, of course you can't see it, only invisible mice can see the invisible cat." If I try to give her another mouse he instantly runs away - sometimes quite noisily along the keys(!) - to the bottom end of the keyboard and then hides in the piano so we can't get him back. Some children are just too imaginative...!
That figures...
QUOTE
And it is hard to believe that this same child is a selective mute and doesn't say anything to non-family adults outside the home.
Funny lot, us humans, aren't we?
Hope she can get over through or around her selective mutism somehow.
Gettign the right finger position : For adults, I get them to hold a tennis ball - this reproduces the finger curve quite well.
Child with flat fingers - I tried getting her to play scales holding a largish dice in her palm with 5th finger - this forced her to keep all the other fingers curved and seemed to work quite well.
Child with flat fingers - I tried getting her to play scales holding a largish dice in her palm with 5th finger - this forced her to keep all the other fingers curved and seemed to work quite well.
QUOTE(sarah-flute @ May 25 2007, 03:10 PM)
QUOTE(Alison @ May 25 2007, 09:46 AM)
One of my little ones has got really into the mouse image. The trouble is, when I suggest she might be squashing the mouse, she just gives me a withering look and says "He's run away." End of story.
If I try to give her another mouse he instantly runs away - sometimes quite noisily along the keys(!) - to the bottom end of the keyboard and then hides in the piano so we can't get him back. Some children are just too imaginative...!
If I try to give her another mouse he instantly runs away - sometimes quite noisily along the keys(!) - to the bottom end of the keyboard and then hides in the piano so we can't get him back. Some children are just too imaginative...!
brilliant!Mice don't make a noise if they run up and down the piano.... I know, we tried.
QUOTE(Inuksuk @ May 25 2007, 08:00 PM)
I have now bought a mouse finger puppet so the only one who can make the mouse run away is me.
The children do tend to squash it on purpose to hear it squeak though.
I am glad some-one is as mad as me: I have a little furry mouse (toy, of course) who just fits under pupils hands and he comes out regularly with the younger ones to help with hand shape, and even general concentration (very versatile mouse
). However, when I commented on a previous thread some people were very rude 
so I hesitated to mention that toy mice can be useful. This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.